You SHOULD get a downgrade if the plane starts to rotate prior to the fuselage breaking, according to the rule. If you move off line slightly to show the break prior to rotation (Bryan contends you on't if the cg is correct), is that downgrade going to be lower or higher than rotating simultaneously with the fuselage breaking?. Depends on whether the judge downgrades it severely or not because he interpreted it as a barrel or axial roll because he didn't see a pitch or yaw break first. I wouldn't apply the 5 point or more rule if it still enters a snap at some point in the manuever, but would downgrade on 1 point per 15 degrees for the amount of rotation it does prior to seeing the fuselage depart the line, according to the rule.<br>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 3px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><PRE><TT><TT></TT></PRE></TT></BLOCKQUOTE><br>
<br>
<div style="CLEAR: both">Jon Lowe</div>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><br>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 2:05 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>
<br>
<div id=AOLMsgPart_0_8a652f44-dc4c-48b7-93c0-91cf026e4d35 style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: #000; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff"><PRE style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT>Jon,
I'm not sure if you are serious or not. If a pilot is showing you such a
"detectable" pitch departure first, they are actually flying "off" the line
which is its own downgrade prior to the snap, subject to the 1 point per 15
degree rule for line deviation. The nose of the plane moving in a conical
fashion is evidence of pitch departure. You do not have to fly off the line to
have that. You can input all 3 at the same time and still achieve the highest
score all things considered.
Thanks,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of <A href="mailto:shinden1@cox.net">shinden1@cox.net</A>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:39 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
Assuming your airplane c/g is set correctly ,,
there will be a displacement during the Snap ,, but it will enter and exit ,,on
the same line I.E.,,Pitch and Yaw will happen at the same time ..you will get a
cone at the tail ,,,the airplane will displace during the input . and recovery
will be a solid lock exit
if the airplane is "not stalled" during the snap ,,usually because your tail
heavy,,,the airplane will exit on a different line than it entered,, Yaw ,and or
Pitch
this includes up,down and 45`s,and
If you have to lead with any input ,,,your tail heavy
I hate to see the scores issued on the 1.5 knife snap :)
no judge will know what inputs are being applied .
If the airplane is tail heavy you don`t need elevator ,,, {most are not using
this input} But I bet you can`t tell me who.
The harder we try to define and rewrite the rules ,,,the easier it will be for
guys Like Jason to receive the 10`s
mortals like us will not be able to complete the definition.
and Andrew, Chip and Jason will laugh all the way to the top 4
Bryan
---- Jon Lowe <<A href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">jonlowe@aol.com</A>> wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at the same
time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted verbatim below, that
says the "fuselage break and separation from the flight path" must happen
"BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage break to pitch
break, it could break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the
same time. If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL start
at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted. READ THE RULE!
The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and separated from the flight
path first, BEFORE the rotation started. If it didn't, he MUST severely
downgrade.
>
>
>
> Jon Lowe
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>>
> To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
>
>
> Jon,
>
>
>
> I'm shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do not equate "fuselage" to "pitch"
in the reading of this definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a
"pitch-assessment" pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is
completely rejected. The plane and therefore "fuselage" must autorotate about
the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a
conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time.
>
>
>
> It is the responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred,
and not determine how or in what order the pilot did it.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM
> To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
>
>
> You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant. I
overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce the
"supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many attitudes (e.g.
45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder departure alone
first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur before the roll departure
started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure first on a end box
upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY clear that simultaneous
roll with either or both of the other axes departures is NOT allowed as others
have tried to state here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen
simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the same
time.
>
>
> Jon Lowe
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JShulman <<A href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>>
> To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
>
> Jon,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break
and separation from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first
this is also correct.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Jason
> <A href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/" target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A>
> <A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A>
> <A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On</A>
Behalf Of Jon Lowe
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM
> To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
> I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting
code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:
>
> "5B.7.5. SNAP-ROLLS
>
> A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the
model aircraft is in a stalled
>
> attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack
>
> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and
stop of the rotation, and
>
> constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.
>
> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break
and separation from the
>
> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is
supposed to be in a stalled
>
> condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the
model aircraft barrelrolls
>
> around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).
Similarly, axial
>
> rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5
points).
>
> Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria
apply. The attitude
>
> (positive or negative) is at the competitor's discretion. If the model
aircraft returns to an unstalled
>
> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the
1 point/15 degree
>
> rule."
>
>
> Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation
from the flight path, before the rotation is started..." That means that
simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted. I would
interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen
simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as
written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously. The rule also
states that a constant flight path has to be maintained.
>
> Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge,
not just some judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any question away.
>
>
> Jon Lowe
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A>
> To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
> A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics
parlance and reference material.
>
> Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do
>
> The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes
simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch
Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically require that the
model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane
must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The model would
probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider that
when executing the maneuver.
>
> In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular
belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the
opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift
much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to
create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the
sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in time
>
> MattK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>>
> To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
> Guys,
>
> I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule
> reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation
> from the flight path."
>
> It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY
> APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll.
> Watch the whole maneuver then render your score.
>
> A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the nose
> and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight
> axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is
> how the pilot does it.
>
> Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link
> below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC.
>
> <A href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77" target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</A>
>
> thanks,
> Jim
>
>
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