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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jon,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m shocked - you are totally wrong here.
Do not equate “fuselage” to “pitch” in the reading of this definition. As a
judge you should NOT apply a “pitch-assessment” pass/fail criteria to judging
FAI snap rolls. It is completely rejected. The plane and therefore “fuselage”
must autorotate about the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of
the plane will move in a conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3
axis at one time. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is the responsibility of the judge to
determine if autorotation occurred, and not determine how or in what order the
pilot did it. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jon Lowe<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>You are correct, as long
as there is no roll induced at the same instant. I overlooked that
possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce the "supposed to
be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many attitudes (e.g.
45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder
departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur
before the roll departure started. And a judge might also
not see a pitch departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see
rudder first. It is VERY clear that simultaneous roll with
either or both of the other axes departures is NOT allowed
as others have tried to state here. I did say that pitch and
yaw departure could happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll
doesn't occur at the same time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Jon Lowe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: JShulman <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5">
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Jon,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I don't see where it says pitch break?
Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from the flight path. So
if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also correct.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/" target="_blank">www.jasonshulman.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target="_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target="_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jon Lowe<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I suggest people re-read
the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting code. I did a few
minutes ago. Here it is:</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>"5B.7.5. <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>SNAP-ROLLS<o:p></o:p></span></b></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid
autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as
far as start and stop of the rotation, and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show
a definite break and separation from the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does
not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than
5 points). Similarly, axial<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded
(more than 5 points).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the
same criteria apply. The attitude<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>(positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion. If
the model aircraft returns to an unstalled<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely
downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>rule."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation
from the flight path, before the rotation is started..." That
means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted.
I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen
simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as
written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously. The rule
also states that a constant flight path has to be maintained.<br>
<br>
Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge, not
just some judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any question
away.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Jon Lowe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_0_f4e18038-9d63-45d9-87c7-a93410402f63">
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=1 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>A
"Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale
aerobatics parlance and reference material. <br>
<br>
Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do <br>
<br>
The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes
simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch
Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically require that
the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe
(.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The
model would probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to
consider that when executing the maneuver. <br>
<br>
In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular
belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the
opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift
much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to
create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the
sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in
time <br>
<br>
MattK <br>
<br>
-----Original Message----- <br>
From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<a href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</a>> <br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName> <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI <br>
<br>
Guys, <br>
<br>
I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <br>
reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and
separation <br>
from the flight path." <br>
<br>
It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT
ERROUNIOUSLY <br>
APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll. <br>
Watch the whole maneuver then render your score. <br>
<br>
A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the nose <br>
and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight <br>
axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is <br>
how the pilot does it. <br>
<br>
Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link <br>
below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC. <br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77" target="_blank">http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</a> <br>
<br>
thanks, <br>
Jim <br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ <br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></tt></pre><pre
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