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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We often think that the wing is producing zero
effect when we go K.E., but the AOA of the wing is still positive to the datum
line and as long as we have forward movement of the airframe a force will be
generated away from the gear. That's why you have down elevator mixed to rudder
in order to nullify this effect. I hear many people state that in K.E. the wing
is not producing any lift, but it sure is reacting to the airflow and
decalage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For the K.E. Snap the airframe still needs to be in
a stalled condition and it's still elevator that's necessary to produce the
effect of the stall. Due to the visual perspective the increased AOA
required to stall the wing will be undectable to the pilot as well as
the judges because in K.E. the pitch-up will take place horizontally
instead of vertically.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But then this is just my understanding and I'm sure
there are others who will straighten me out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 4:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Which axis do you need to show a "break" in for a knife edge snap? The
wing isn't really "lifting", the fuse is.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Pavlick<BR><BR><B><I>"george w. kennie" <<A
href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">geobet@gis.net</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My lip is becoming too painful from biting it,
so I think I'm going to stick my nose in here somewhere.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think I'm with Jon on this one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am
flying my plane straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much,
there is no way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.
Therefore, it seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the
main lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further seem to
me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching attitude to
the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I would have to conclude that
the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can only refer to a "pitch"
break and would be impossible to confuse with an attitude change induced by
the rudder seeing that the required result is to stall the main
wing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary
to lead with the elevator in order to bring about this attitude change
before rotation is started, however miniscule the interval might
be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Of course I'm still open to hearing other
interpretations and their validations as these observations are strictly
opinions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jonlowe@aol.com href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">Jon Lowe</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Jim,<BR><BR>I have no clue how you think all three axes can
be initiated at the same time.
You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted
verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and
separation from the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS
STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could
break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same
time. If you initiate all three axis at the same time,
rotation WILL start at the same instant, and that is
specifically NOT permitted. READ THE RULE! The judge MUST
determine if the fuselage broke and separated from the flight path first,
BEFORE the rotation started. If it didn't, he MUST severely
downgrade.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both">Jon Lowe</DIV><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37
pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_10dac3e0-4768-4b7d-9454-3fc24f6ce152>
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<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m shocked -
you are totally wrong here. Do not equate “fuselage” to
“pitch” in the reading of this definition. As a judge you should
NOT apply a “pitch-assessment” pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap
rolls. It is completely rejected. The plane and therefore
“fuselage” must autorotate about the flight axis, which means that the
nose and tail of the plane will move in a conical fashion. The pilot
can initiate with all 3 axis at one time. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is the
responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not
determine how or in what order the pilot did it.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon
Lowe<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June
16, 2008 1:21 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You are
correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant. I
overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce
the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many
attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see
a rudder departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure
did not occur before the roll departure started. And a judge
might also not see a pitch departure first on a end box upline
snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY clear that
simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes
departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state
here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could
happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur
at the same time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
JShulman <<A
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</A>><BR>To:
General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't see where
it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and separation
from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first this is
also correct.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"
target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"
target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"
target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon Lowe<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I suggest
people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting
code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it
is:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"5B.7.5. <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">SNAP-ROLLS</SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A snap-roll (or flick
roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft
is in a stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">attitude, with a continuous
high angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls have the same
judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the
rotation, and</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">constant flight path through
the manoeuvre is concerned.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At the start of a snap-roll,
the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from
the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">flight path, before the
rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a
stalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition throughout the
manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft
barrelrolls</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">around, the manoeuvre must
be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly,
axial</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rolls disguised as
snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5
points).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls can be flown both
positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The
attitude</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(positive or negative) is at
the competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition during the
snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15
degree</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rule."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Note
that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation
from the flight path, before the rotation is started..."
That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT
permitted. I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw
could theoretically happen simultaneously, as long as no roll is
involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as written do NOT allow actuation
in all three axes simultaneously. The rule also states that a
constant flight path has to be maintained.<BR><BR>Let's face it, the
only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge, not just some
judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any question
away.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry
in FAI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_0_f4e18038-9d63-45d9-87c7-a93410402f63>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT face=Tahoma
color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">A "Flick" and
a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics parlance and
reference material. <BR> <BR>Do these mean the same thing in
model aerobatics? In my view, they do <BR> <BR>The latest FAI
regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is,
the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch Break" from other
deviations. I don't think they specifically require that the model must
rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane must
rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The model would
probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider
that when executing the maneuver. <BR> <BR>In my take, a rapid
Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular belief, both
panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite.
Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much
much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting
to create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall
out of the sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct
moment in time <BR> <BR>MattK <BR> <BR>-----Original
Message----- <BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>> <BR>To:
General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI <BR> <BR>Guys, <BR> <BR>I thought the
FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <BR>reads,
"... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and
separation <BR>from the flight path." <BR> <BR>It does
not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT
ERROUNIOUSLY <BR>APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial
assessment to the snap roll. <BR>Watch the whole maneuver then
render your score. <BR> <BR>A break and separation from the
flight path simply means that the nose <BR>and tail of the plane
must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight <BR>axis. Yaw,
roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is <BR>how
the pilot does it. <BR> <BR>Hey :) some really handsome smart
guy wrote some stuff at this link <BR>below about snap rolls to
help clarify how they are done in IMAC. <BR> <BR><A
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77"
target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</A> <BR> <BR>thanks, <BR>Jim <BR> <BR> <BR>_______________________________________________ <BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list <BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
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