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George - you have made an excellent point in that the interval may by <br>"minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is absolutely <br>wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as judge an <br>exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation of the <br>maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand <br>another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin <br>maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a <br>portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore your usage of <br>the term "minuscule" in terms of the time interval between pitch and <br>rotation is something we need to keep in mind. <br><br>Chris<br><br>george w. kennie wrote:<br>> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm going to <br>> stick my nose in here somewhere.<br>> I think I'm with Jon on this one.<br>> My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane <br>> straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there is no <br>> way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe. Therefore, it <br>> seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main <br>> lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further seem to <br>> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching <br>> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I would have <br>> to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can only <br>> refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse with an <br>> attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required result <br>> is to stall the main wing.<br>> And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the <br>> elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before rotation <br>> is started, however miniscule the interval might be.<br>> Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and their <br>> validations as these observations are strictly opinions.<br>> G.<br>><br>> ----- Original Message -----<br>> *From:* Jon Lowe <mailto:jonlowe@aol.com><br>> *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<br>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>><br>> Jim,<br>><br>> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<br>> the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted<br>> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from<br>> the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<br>> NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<br>> pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<br>> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL<br>> start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted.<br>> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<br>> separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.<br>> If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<br>><br>><br>> Jon Lowe<br>><br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)<br>> To: General pattern discussion<br>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm<br>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>><br>> Jon,<br>> <br>> I’m shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do not equate “fuselage”<br>> to “pitch” in the reading of this definition. As a judge you<br>> should NOT apply a “pitch-assessment” pass/fail criteria to<br>> judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely rejected. The plane and<br>> therefore “fuselage” must autorotate about the flight axis, which<br>> means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a conical<br>> fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time.<br>> <br>> It is the responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation<br>> occurred, and not determine how or in what order the pilot did it.<br>> <br>> Thanks,<br>> Jim<br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org><br>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?>] *On Behalf Of<br>> *Jon Lowe<br>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM<br>> *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>> You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same<br>> instant. I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone<br>> will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!!<br>> There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge<br>> could not likely see a rudder departure alone first, and thus<br>> conclude that departure did not occur before the roll departure<br>> started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure first on<br>> a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY<br>> clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes<br>> departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state here. I<br>> did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen simutaneously,<br>> in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the same time.<br>> Jon Lowe<br>><br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: JShulman <jshulman@cfl.rr.com <mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com>><br>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>><br>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<br>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>> Jon,<br>> I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show<br>> attitude break and separation from the flight path. So if one uses<br>> rudder and elevator first this is also correct.<br>> Regards,<br>> Jason<br>> www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com/><br>> www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com/><br>> www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com/><br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org><br>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?>]*On Behalf<br>> Of *Jon Lowe<br>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM<br>> *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>> I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the<br>> FAI sporting code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:<br>> "5B.7.5. *SNAP-ROLLS*<br>> A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid<br>> autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled<br>> attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack<br>> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as<br>> far as start and stop of the rotation, and<br>> constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.<br>> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a<br>> definite break and separation from the<br>> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model<br>> aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled<br>> condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does<br>> not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls<br>> around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5<br>> points). Similarly, axial<br>> rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded<br>> (more than 5 points).<br>> Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the<br>> same criteria apply. The attitude<br>> (positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion. If<br>> the model aircraft returns to an unstalled<br>> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely<br>> downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree<br>> rule."<br>><br>> Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break<br>> and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is<br>> started..." That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is<br>> specifically NOT permitted. I would interpret it as meaning<br>> that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen simultaneously,<br>> as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as<br>> written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes<br>> simultaneously. The rule also states that a constant flight<br>> path has to be maintained.<br>><br>> Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from<br>> EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break<br>> first. Takes any question away.<br>> Jon Lowe<br>><br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: rcmaster199@aol.com <mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com><br>> To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<br>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>> A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale<br>> aerobatics parlance and reference material.<br>><br>> Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view,<br>> they do<br>><br>> The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes<br>> simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically<br>> differentiate "Pitch Break" from other deviations. I don't<br>> think they specifically require that the model must rotate<br>> about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane<br>> must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....).<br>> The model would probably present the best if that's done, so<br>> pilots may want to consider that when executing the maneuver.<br>><br>> In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing.<br>> Contrary to popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall<br>> for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon rudder<br>> deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much<br>> much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must<br>> be lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels stall,<br>> the model will fall out of the sky for a distance and a snap<br>> would not occur at the correct moment in time<br>><br>> MattK<br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com<br>> <mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com>><br>> To: General pattern discussion<br>> <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>><br>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am<br>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<br>><br>> Guys,<br>><br>> I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The<br>> rule<br>> reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and<br>> separation<br>> from the flight path."<br>><br>> It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT<br>> ERROUNIOUSLY<br>> APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the<br>> snap roll.<br>> Watch the whole maneuver then render your score.<br>><br>> A break and separation from the flight path simply means that<br>> the nose<br>> and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about<br>> the fight<br>> axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if<br>> that is<br>> how the pilot does it.<br>><br>> Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this<br>> link<br>> below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC.<br>><br>> http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77 <br>><br>> thanks,<br>> Jim<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> Get the Moviefone Toolbar<br>> <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>.<br>> Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>><br>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>><br>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>><br>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> Get the Moviefone Toolbar<br>> <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>.<br>> Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> Get the Moviefone Toolbar<br>> <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>.<br>> Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!<br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>><br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.<br>> It has removed 9842 spam emails to date.<br>> Paying users do not have this message in their emails.<br>> Try SPAMfighter <http://www.spamfighter.com/len> for free now!<br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br><br><br /><hr />It’s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live™ Messenger. <a href='https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow' target='_new'>Learn How.</a></body>
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