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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>John,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There is a very simple explanation – so the
movie will be short.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Trimmed for straight and level flight, the
wing is produce “1G” of lift (lift equal but opposite to the effect of gravity)
and the fuse is not yawed. In KE, the pitch trim has not changed, and the wing
is still producing 1G – but – the fuse is now yawed, and if the shape of the
fuse is “correct”, the yawed fuse will produce a lift component that cancels
the 1G of lift from the wing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>That’s it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><br>
Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Konneker<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, 2008 6:38
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>JAS,<br>
Save my seat.<br>
I'm going to get the popcorn.<br>
Do you want butter on yours?<br>
:-)<br>
JLK<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>From: mjfrederick@cox.net<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:28:44 -0500<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Not everyone has to have elevator mixed to KE.</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:geobet@gis.net" title="geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" title="jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>
; <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, June 16,
2008 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>John,</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>We often think that the wing is producing zero effect when
we go K.E., but the AOA of the wing is still positive to the datum line and as
long as we have forward movement of the airframe a force will be generated away
from the gear. That's why you have down elevator mixed to rudder in order to nullify
this effect. I hear many people state that in K.E. the wing is not producing
any lift, but it sure is reacting to the airflow and decalage.</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>For the K.E. Snap the airframe still needs to be in a
stalled condition and it's still elevator that's necessary to produce the
effect of the stall. Due to the visual perspective the increased AOA
required to stall the wing will be undectable to the pilot as well as
the judges because in K.E. the pitch-up will take place horizontally
instead of vertically.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>But then this is just my understanding and I'm sure there
are others who will straighten me out.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>G.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" title="jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, June 16,
2008 4:57 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Which axis do you need to show a "break" in for a
knife edge snap? The wing isn't really "lifting", the fuse is.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>"george w.
kennie" <<a href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">geobet@gis.net</a>></span></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think
I'm going to stick my nose in here somewhere.</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I think I'm with Jon on this one.</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my
plane straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there is no
way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe. Therefore, it seems to
me, that the necessary force required to stall the main lifting surface must
come from the elevator. It would further seem to me that this input must, by it's
very nature produce a pitching attitude to the fuselage whether positive or
negative. So I would have to conclude that the attitude "break"
referenced by the rule can only refer to a "pitch" break and would be
impossible to confuse with an attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that
the required result is to stall the main wing.</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with
the elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before rotation is
started, however miniscule the interval might be.</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations
and their validations as these observations are strictly opinions.</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>G.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com" title="jonlowe@aol.com">Jon Lowe</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, June 16,
2008 2:10 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Jim,<br>
<br>
I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at the same
time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE,
quoted verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and
separation from the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS
STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could
break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same
time. If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL
start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT
permitted. READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage
broke and separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation
started. If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Jon Lowe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><br>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="EC_AOLMsgPart_3_10dac3e0-4768-4b7d-9454-3fc24f6ce152">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jon,</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m shocked - you are totally wrong
here. Do not equate “fuselage†to “pitch†in the reading of this
definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a “pitch-assessmentâ€
pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely
rejected. The plane and therefore “fuselage†must autorotate about
the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a
conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time. </span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is the responsibility of the judge to
determine if autorotation occurred, and not determine how or in what order the
pilot did it. </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jon Lowe<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same
instant. I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone
will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled condition"
though!! There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a
judge could not likely see a rudder departure alone first, and
thus conclude that departure did not occur before the roll departure
started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure
first on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY
clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the
other axes departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to
state here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could
happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the
same time.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Jon Lowe</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: JShulman <<a href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>><br>
To: General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="EC_AOLMsgPart_3_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Jon,</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I don't see where it says pitch break?
Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from the flight path. So
if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also correct.</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/" target="_blank">www.jasonshulman.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target="_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target="_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a></span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jon Lowe<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Snap entry in FAI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI
sporting code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>"5B.7.5. <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>SNAP-ROLLS</span></b></span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid
autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as
far as start and stop of the rotation, and</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show
a definite break and separation from the</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does
not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than
5 points). Similarly, axial</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded
(more than 5 points).</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the
same criteria apply. The attitude</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>(positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion.
If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely
downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>rule."</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation
from the flight path, before the rotation is started..." That
means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted.
I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen
simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as
written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously. The rule
also states that a constant flight path has to be maintained.<br>
<br>
Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge, not
just some judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any question
away.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Jon Lowe</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI</span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="EC_AOLMsgPart_0_f4e18038-9d63-45d9-87c7-a93410402f63">
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=1 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>A
"Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics
parlance and reference material. <br>
<br>
Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do <br>
<br>
The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes
simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch
Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically require that
the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe
(.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The
model would probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to
consider that when executing the maneuver. <br>
<br>
In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular
belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the
opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift
much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to
create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the
sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in
time <br>
<br>
MattK <br>
<br>
-----Original Message----- <br>
From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<a href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</a>> <br>
To: General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI <br>
<br>
Guys, <br>
<br>
I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <br>
reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and
separation <br>
from the flight path." <br>
<br>
It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT
ERROUNIOUSLY <br>
APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll. <br>
Watch the whole maneuver then render your score. <br>
<br>
A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the nose <br>
and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight <br>
axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is <br>
how the pilot does it. <br>
<br>
Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link <br>
below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC. <br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77" target="_blank">http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</a> <br>
<br>
thanks, <br>
Jim <br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ <br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>
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<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a> </span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id="EC_u8CA9DE2C4F75A73-63C-1100">
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a
href="http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011"
target="_blank"
title="http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011">Get
the Moviefone Toolbar</a>. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!</span></font><font
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div id="EC_AOLMsgPart_4_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________</span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
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