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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Shoot man - we can get in a little
practice.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcmaster199@aol.com
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:30
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI
flight time rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It sure sounds like a big-time loophole. No prescribed penalty for the
touchdown exceeding 8 mins, as long as the schedule was done within 8 mins?!
</DIV>
<DIV>So F3A'ers out there can waffle after all, after they finish the
schedule....or if the engine gets stuck at high revs, this rule loses zero
points for that scenario.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Earl Haury
<ejhaury@comcast.net><BR>To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:26
am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_fbfbe54c-46ed-4210-8133-90c82d1ca223>
<DIV>Time expires @ 8 min or touchdown - whichever occurs first. Loophole?
Sure looks like it to me - but, for now, that's the rule.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Earl</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Snaproll4@aol.com
href="mailto:Snaproll4@aol.com">Snaproll4@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:08
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI
flight time rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=3>
<DIV>OK. So the 3 minute start time is part of the 8 minute total
time. The portion of the flight between the last maneuver and the
touch down is the most likely place for the time limit to expire. How
can the time limit expire at touchdown when you can't penalize the pilot
after the last maneuver? Is this a loophole in the way the rule is
written?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 5/15/2008 9:37:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, <A
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Troy is correct. Flight time starts when pilot is
instructed to start, must be in air within 3 minutes and total time is 8
minutes with flight time ending at touch-down. However - there's no
penalty prescribed for going over the 8 minutes after the last scored
maneuver, as landing is no longer judged. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Other than time to get in air, there's no
requirements for take-off (no more procedure turn). One may choose to
take-off opposite the direction of flight and / or land opposite take-off
direction. In a quick look, I don't find where hot-dogging is specifically
covered - however, the "unsportsman like behavior" section or "unsafe
flying" of the general rules might possibly be invoked. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>These and several other detail changes in the F3A
rules are the reason folks are required to re-cert for judging
F3A.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w.
kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2008 7:52
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI
flight time rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,........Sounds like
not even a penalty for "hot-dogging" after the final maneuver !
ARE YOU SURE , Troy ?????????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Me</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:troy@troynewman.net
href="mailto:troy@troynewman.net">Troy Newman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:34
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
FAI flight time rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The penalty for going over time is all
scored figures <STRONG><U>after</U></STRONG> time has elapsed get a
score of zero. The flight is <FONT
color=#ff0000><STRONG>not</STRONG></FONT> a zero...Just those figures
not completed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>SO once you exit the box all figures
are complete....If you are still not on the ground there would be no
penalty per the rules even if 8mins has expired</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Only if you were not "out of the box"
yet when the time expired you would get zeros on all figures not
completed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Which by the way in F3A you are not
required to call entering or leaving the box. So if you complete the
last figure and have the 15meter of straight flight wings level...you
are done....After than you can take as much time as you like to land
and that would even include go arounds...the rule doesn't say you
can't and there is no penalty for it. The landing score is gone so you
didn't violate the landing sequence. Before a go around was a zero
score because it didn't follow the landing sequence. There is no more
landing sequence. Even applying the AMA rule for extra passes
because the FAI book is silent you could not zero any of the figures,
as the AMA rules state the next maneuver gets a zero. Since all
maneuvers are already scored there is nothing to zero and you can't go
backwards into the sequence and start taking zeros on figures
completed properly under the rules.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Troy Newman</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:52
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jeff,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">10 minutes
for schedules with 23 maneuvers is not much different than 8 minutes
for schedules with 19 maneuvers (including takeoff and landing).
With the older P schedule, it was not difficult to exceed 10
minutes if the takeoff and landing sequences were very large and slow
(1 minute for takeoff seq, 45 sec to land – pretty easy to save 30
seconds on these alone), and the sequence was big and relaxed.
Now, the Prelim sequences are 19 maneuvers (as are the finals
sequences) – which means about 90 seconds less airtime – so dropping
the clock from 10 to 8 minutes is not a biggy.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My
understanding is that the Prelim sequences were shorted to shorten the
duration of the Prelims at the Worlds – 2 minutes x 4 rounds x 100
pilots makes a huge difference.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dave
Lockhart</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
title=mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jeff
Hill<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday,
May 14, 2008 11:33 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">While reading up on the new FAI rules I came
upon the following paragraphs regarding flight
time:</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">from Section 5.1.11</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">If there is a
frequency conflict, the competitor must be allowed a maximum of
one </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">minute for a radio
check before the start of the 3 minute starting time. The timer will
audibly notify </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">the competitor when
the minute is finished and immediately start timing the 3-minutes
starting time. </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">The starting
time ceases when the model aircraft commences its take-off roll.
The timing device is re-started when </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">the model aircraft
commences its take-off roll, and time will stop when the model
aircraft first </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">touches the runway
after completion of the flight. The total flight time allowed is 8
minutes. </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">from
Section 5.1.12</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"> The competitor
has eight minutes to complete the flight; timing to start when the
flight line </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">official gives the
signal to the competitor to start his model aircraft and ending
when the model </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">aircraft first
touches the runway after completing the flight.<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> </SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">5.1.11
seems to say that the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time the TO
roll starts. 5.1.12 says the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time
s/he is told to start the model
aircraft. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">If it is 8
minutes total that seems short to me because someone could spend 3
minutes of the time getting the engine started and only have 5 for the
flight. I know sequences are shorter now, but, we've had pilots exceed
10 minutes at the Nats so I would think 2 fewer minutes would make
even the shortest sequences tough to
do. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">Any rules
gurus out there want to comment? Perhaps electric fliers are getting a
break after losing out on the batteries-as-fuel
issue. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">Jeff
Hill</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
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target=_blank>MapQuest.com</A>: America's #1 Mapping Site.</FONT> </DIV>
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