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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chris</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Are your incidenses measured relative to the pipe
opening ? What is your wing incidence now ? I assume the thrustline is at zero
now ? Do you know where the CG is relative to the MAC ? relative to
the wing tube ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The CG needs to be about 35% MAC and <U>LEFT
ALONE.</U></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><U><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></U> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you put more positive in the wing/thrustline it
will go <U>LESS</U> to the gear in knife edge, not more. The spread should
be LESS THAN 0.5 deg. It goes to the canopy in the downline because this
spread is too much. It goes to the gear in knife edge because the
wing/thrustline incidencies are <U>TOO LOW</U>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The differential needs to be trimmed now - it is
independent of the above.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>FORGET ABOUT THE STAB FOR NOW. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Follow these directions and get me new
mix
percentages.
nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=brian_w_young@yahoo.com href="mailto:brian_w_young@yahoo.com">brian
young</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:00
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Joy of
Trim</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>No disrespect to Bryan, check with Nat. He has more free time im
geussing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It may be worth heading back to a known setting to double check.
<BR><BR><B><I>krishlan fitzsimmons <<A
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>Ok, back to this again.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here's what I don't understand with the Triangulation theory.. The
theory itself makes sense.. My plane doesn't unless my cg is way back still.
It fly's very nose heavy now BTW.. </DIV>
<DIV>My plane still has the up ele trim in knifes, and still pulls to
the canopy in downlines. I went a turn and a half more of positive in the
wings and changed the thrust to zero (The thrust I am going to put back to
0.5) the day before the contest.. The mix remained the same, and it
didn't help my downlines. But it did neutralize my ele trims from the up it
had in it. </DIV>
<DIV>Now here's my problem, I am already more nose heavy than where everyone
else has it, matter of fact, it's hard to slow it down to land, and it
bounces on the gear which it never has before.. Now if I'm correct, my
problems show me I need more positive in my wings and a more forward cg
according to the triangulation. But if I do that, it will make my stabs go
more negative (or down ele trim), which yes, will help my downlines, but
won't it make it pull worse to the gear in knife? I already have 1/8 up ele
mixed in it in knife. Granted, with an even more forward cg, that should
help with the pull to the gear. Am I thinking correct here? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It fly's right now like it's nose heavy and the differential in the
roll is horrible.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>vicenterc@comcast.net</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>Congratulation, you did very good. I don't think you are flying
bad after getting that result. California lovely weather. I am
tropical guy so I love 90 degrees. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I flew yeserday but it was cold and windy. I could not do
any detail trimming in that conditions. I am planing get the
incidence at 0.8. Now is 0.6 and it was 0.4. Clearly, the
effect of all this was to reduce the mixing. I am around 6% all
around which is less than 0.5 degree movement of control surfaces.
That is not that bad. The best cg position I have seen is between
0.6 to 1" in front of the front edge of the wing tube. The Abbra
tail heavy tracks really bad. I did that test yesterday moving the
batteries. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It looks like the negative TL could be the problem. We need to
get the TL and the incidence as close as possible. I think within
0.5 degree. I will do this next time and I will let you
know. I am traveling this week so hopefully weather permitting
I will try to fly next weekend. I think you need to measure were are
you in incidence and TL relative to the belly pan floor. In
this way we can get equivalent reference.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks, </DIV>
<DIV class=signature id=signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: krishlan fitzsimmons
<homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com> <BR>
<DIV>Vicente, SNOW?????????</DIV>
<DIV>Holy crap man.. At the Riverside contest today it was over 90.. I
am pretty burned.. lol</DIV>
<DIV>Did pretty good though, got a 3952 to Rusty Fried's 4000 out of 5
rounds... I'm pretty happy with that for how bad I seem to be fighting
the plane..</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As for the whole trim thing, well, where we left it last, the Abbra
got a little more up thrust (1 washer) and a turn and a half more
postive incidence for now as a test. It feels a little nose heavy now.
Very bouncy on the gear on landing which it has never been before moving
the cg. But the uplines and 45's looked good and felt good. Still has
almost the same mixes in knife though. Downlines still pull to
canopy. The ele now has neutral trim though.. </DIV>
<DIV>Just FYI.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris<BR><BR><B><I>vicenterc@comcast.net</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>I wish that were breezy here. Weather has been really bad
in Kansas this year. Well, mother nature always
wins. We just to need patient, good weather is coming next week
or so. Probably, I will have a chance to fly tomorrow
afternoon. Today is cold and we are expecting snow.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Have a nice flying weekend,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=signature id=signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com> <BR>
<DIV>That is great news, Chad. I'm glad to hear that the
issues got resolved.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm also very close on my setup... my stab is at 0 and the
wings are almost +.5. The plane comes standard without
downthrust and I have since added some to help with the pull to the
canopy in the upline - its almost 100% but not quite. I think
I may still be a little tail heavy and will add some nose weight
when I get a day that is calm - it has been a little breezy
here. Overall my plane is flying much better now as
well.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Chad
Northeast <<A
href="mailto:chadnortheast@shaw.ca">chadnortheast@shaw.ca</A>>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Guys<BR><BR>A
while back I posted this, and have recently got around to the
suggestions. Both Bryan and Nat said that the TL was far too
much negative as the Twister has -2.5 deg molded into the fuse.
So away I went, here is a copy of the email (just below) I
sent to them after my flights to resolve it.<BR><BR>Before last
week you could have never convinced me that you could get a plane
neutral in knife edge without giving up something....well I
officially stand corrected :-) They know their stuff, were
right on the money and the Twister goes pretty much anywhere you
point it now without mixing (except a bit on downline but I think
I can get rid of that).<BR><BR>I gotta say thanks to Bryan and Nat
for their help, they were bang on, and I would suggest to anyone
that you give their suggestions and honest try, I bet you are more
than happy with the ! ! resul ts !<BR><BR>Chad<BR><BR>Hey
guys,<BR><BR>Well finally got out flying, good thing too since I
am off to NY state<BR>again on Monday :-(<BR><BR>So, here is where
I was, I broke down and bought an inclinometer so I<BR>could
actually measure the plane directly....since I am too lazy to
do<BR>trig.<BR><BR>Engine, as molded is -2.5 but I was at -3.5,
wing +0.8, stab +0.1.<BR><BR>So I got as much of the down out of
it as possible which leaves me at -1,<BR>I can't do any more
without shimming the motor further out for more<BR>clearance
spinner to nose ring. I put the wing back to +0.5 and left
the<BR>stab alone.<BR><BR>First flight today, removed the left
rudder KE mix I had (had none on<BR>right rudder), and downline
mix.<BR>- Plane needed a bit of down trim for level, but was
pretty close<BR>- Uplines went to the canopy<BR>- 45 ups inverted
pulled over the top fairly hard<BR>- 45 downs upright were pretty
decent but still dove a bit - recall this<BR>was my major beef
with pr! evi! ou s set up<BR>- knife was pulling to canopy both
ways<BR><BR>Second flight - moved CG back as I have felt that it
was too far forward<BR>in general, and I think you would agree if
you saw where it was.<BR>- more down trim<BR>- Uplines became very
close<BR>- knife both ways was pretty good, really solid with
right rudder, and<BR>very very close on left (slight belly
pitch)...probably not worth mixing<BR>out<BR>- 45 downs upright
were getting better<BR>- downline mix reduced 2% from start<BR>-
45 ups inverted better<BR><BR>Third flight - took out 1/2 turn of
incidence, which by trig should put me<BR>at 0.41+ on the
wings<BR>- uplines became perfect, or really close...would need
more flights in<BR>various conditions to nail<BR>- everything else
was really close<BR><BR>Fourth flight - decided to adjust stab
since I was carrying a little up<BR>elevator, so I took 1/2 turn
out of adjuster which should being it close<BR>to 0<BR>- this
pretty much sealed it<BR>- uplines are as before,! very ! very cl
ose<BR>- no KE mix - even in the KE loop at high deflections its
really, really<BR>good<BR>- took another 1% out of my downline mix
(I am at 2%, started at 5%)<BR>- 45 ups inverted are really good,
just a slight arc over the top<BR>- 45 down upright is finally
straight.<BR><BR>I need to spend some more time on it to really
get a good feel, but I<BR>think the downthrust was causing a lot
of problems to this plane. I have<BR>never had it in all
aspects of flight this close yet. I am anxious to
get<BR>more time on it and see if the changes really stick.
Unfortunately on<BR>Sunday this plane is going to a buddy
but I plan on incorporating all<BR>these changes on the new
Twister which is why I wanted to get it figured<BR>out now
:)<BR><BR>Any further comments? CG is probably around 33% of
MAC, but to be exact I<BR>would have to calculate.<BR><BR>Upline
snaps are as you say Bryan, on axis with no need to lead....I
was<BR>pretty happy to see that re! sult :) <B! R><BR>C
had<BR><BR><BR>> > > From: "Chad Northeast" <<A
href="mailto:chadnortheast@shaw.ca">chadnortheast@shaw.ca</A>><BR>>
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>
> > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:57 PM<BR>> > >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim<BR>> >
><BR>> > ><BR>> > > > Ok you trim masters,
here is a tricky one for you.<BR>> > > ><BR>> >
> > Bryan and I have been through this a bit last year but
I<BR>> ran out of<BR>> > time<BR>> > > >
before the Worlds to fix it and just flew with what I had.<BR>>
> > ><BR>> > > > On my Twister I have this
pesky problem, the setup is like so,<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > > wing = 1/2+ Bryans suggestion and I
like it<BR>> > > > stab = 0<BR>> > > >
motor ! = facto ry cl! aims 2. 5 down, have not measured
but<BR>> could if asked,<BR>> > I<BR>> > > >
have added more to cure a problem see below<BR>> > > >
CG = has been anywhere from 275 to 300mm from TE mostly<BR>>
with the same<BR>> > > > result. Currently its
around 285-290 and it feels<BR>> good at that point.<BR>>
> 45<BR>> > > > ups inverted track almost
hands off if under enough power.<BR>> > > ><BR>>
> > > Symptoms,<BR>> > > ><BR>> > >
> Plane flies well, at this setup I need 0 mix right
rudder<BR>> to ele in<BR>> > knife,<BR>> > >
> and about 2% up ele with left rudder in knife,<BR>> >
> > about 1/32" down elevator with idle to fix a
downline<BR>> > > > Added downthrust as the increase
in wing inc. and more<BR>> forward CG<BR>> >
really<BR>> > > > helped the mix in knife and made
rollers ! easier, but<BR>! > fo rced an<BR>> > increase
in<BR>> > > > downthrust as the plane started pulling
to the canopy on<BR>> uplines.> > > Downline mix
remained the same.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
The big problem I cannot resolve is this, a 45 deg down<BR>>
upright (motor<BR>> > at<BR>> > > > idle) the
plane pitches to the belly and will not track on<BR>> its own
for<BR>> > any<BR>> > > > length of time.
If I switch the idle-down mix off<BR>> its rock solid
on<BR>> > that<BR>> > > > line.<BR>> >
> ><BR>> > > > I am open to all suggestions now
that I have a bit of time<BR>> to play<BR>> >
with<BR>> > > > this, I hope Bryan chimes in some more
as I would like to<BR>> continue> where<BR>> > >
> we left off last fall. If you suggest something
I<BR>> will do my best to<BR>> > give<BR>> >! >
& gt; it a go! and le t you know how it works (provided it
doesn't<BR>> snow!)> > ><BR>> > > > The
plane is basically super locked in with this setup,<BR>> except
for the<BR>> > > > silly 45 down upright, which is a
problem in cubans and such.<BR>> > > ><BR>> >
> > Comments and thoughts from the masters are most<BR>>
appreciated :) I<BR>> > consider<BR>> > >
> myself one of the, cant really trim that well but can
fly<BR>> through it<BR>> > just<BR>> > > >
fine types :)<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
Chad<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
_______________________________________________<BR>> > >
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> > > > <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
> > > <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_! blank>h ttp://lists.n! srca.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> >
><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>From:
"Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>To:
chad@f3acanada.org, "NSRCA Mailing List"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Joy of Trim<BR>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:16:33
+0000<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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<DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>From: krishlan fitzsimmons
<homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com><BR>To: NSRCA Mailing List
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Joy of Trim<BR>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 07:32:52
+0000<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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