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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Not sure if <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Bryan</st1:City></st1:place> has responded privately-BUT-It sounds
like you have got yourself in a knot here. I’d suggest to start at the
beginning again. Carefully analyse what the plane is doing. Are you truly flying
straight and level-hands off? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is imperative that you analyse each
change that you make-then stop and think again, make one change at a time and
listen to what the plane is telling you.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is very easy to loose the plot doing
this! I realise I haven’t given you specific answer-but I’d suggest
starting again.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>krishlan fitzsimmons<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, 18 April 2008 6:20
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Joy of Trim</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Ok, back to this again.. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Here's what I don't understand with the Triangulation theory.. The
theory itself makes sense.. My plane doesn't unless my cg is way back still. It
fly's very nose heavy now BTW.. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>My plane still has the up ele trim in knifes, and still pulls to
the canopy in downlines. I went a turn and a half more of positive in the wings
and changed the thrust to zero (The thrust I am going to put back to
0.5) the day before the contest.. The mix remained the same, and it didn't
help my downlines. But it did neutralize my ele trims from the up it had in it.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Now here's my problem, I am already more nose heavy than where everyone
else has it, matter of fact, it's hard to slow it down to land, and it bounces
on the gear which it never has before.. Now if I'm correct, my problems show me
I need more positive in my wings and a more forward cg according to the
triangulation. But if I do that, it will make my stabs go more negative (or
down ele trim), which yes, will help my downlines, but won't it make it pull
worse to the gear in knife? I already have 1/8 up ele mixed in it in knife.
Granted, with an even more forward cg, that should help with the pull to the
gear. Am I thinking correct here? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It fly's right now like it's nose heavy and the differential in the
roll is horrible.. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Chris<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>vicenterc@comcast.net</span></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Congratulation, you did very good. I don't think you are flying
bad after getting that result. <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">California</st1:place></st1:State>
lovely weather. I am tropical guy so I love 90 degrees.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I flew yeserday but it was cold and windy. I could not do
any detail trimming in that conditions. I am planing get the incidence at
0.8. Now is 0.6 and it was 0.4. Clearly, the effect of all this was
to reduce the mixing. I am around 6% all around which is less than 0.5
degree movement of control surfaces. That is not that bad. The best
cg position I have seen is between 0.6 to 1" in front of the front edge of
the wing tube. The Abbra tail heavy tracks really bad. I did that
test yesterday moving the batteries. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It looks like the negative TL could be the problem. We need to
get the TL and the incidence as close as possible. I think within 0.5
degree. I will do this next time and I will let you know. I am
traveling this week so hopefully weather permitting I will try to fly next
weekend. I think you need to measure were are you in incidence and TL
relative to the belly pan floor. In this way we can
get equivalent reference.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=signature>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<st1:PersonName w:st="on">home</st1:PersonName>remodeling2003@yahoo.com>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Vicente, SNOW?????????<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Holy crap man.. At the <st1:place w:st="on">Riverside</st1:place>
contest today it was over 90.. I am pretty burned.. lol<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Did pretty good though, got a 3952 to Rusty Fried's 4000 out of 5
rounds... I'm pretty happy with that for how bad I seem to be fighting the
plane..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>As for the whole trim thing, well, where we left it last, the Abbra got
a little more up thrust (1 washer) and a turn and a half more postive incidence
for now as a test. It feels a little nose heavy now. Very bouncy on the gear on
landing which it has never been before moving the cg. But the uplines and 45's
looked good and felt good. Still has almost the same mixes in knife though.
Downlines still pull to canopy. The ele now has neutral trim though.. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Just FYI.. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Chris<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>vicenterc@comcast.net</span></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I wish that were breezy here. Weather has been really bad in <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kansas</st1:place></st1:State> this year.
Well, mother nature always wins. We just to need patient, good
weather is coming next week or so. Probably, I will have a chance to fly
tomorrow afternoon. Today is cold and we are expecting snow.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Have a nice flying weekend,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=signature>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>That is great news, <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
I'm glad to hear that the issues got resolved.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I'm also very close on my
setup... my stab is at 0 and the wings are almost +.5. The plane comes
standard without downthrust and I have since added some to help with the pull
to the canopy in the upline - its almost 100% but not quite. I think I
may still be a little tail heavy and will add some nose weight when I get a day
that is calm - it has been a little breezy here. Overall my plane is
flying much better now as well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Chad Northeast <<a
href="mailto:chadnortheast@shaw.ca">chadnortheast@shaw.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Guys<br>
<br>
A while back I posted this, and have recently got around to the suggestions.
Both Bryan and Nat said that the TL was far too much negative as the
Twister has -2.5 deg molded into the fuse. So away I went, here is a copy
of the email (just below) I sent to them after my flights to resolve it.<br>
<br>
Before last week you could have never convinced me that you could get a plane
neutral in knife edge without giving up something....well I officially stand
corrected :-) They know their stuff, were right on the money and the
Twister goes pretty much anywhere you point it now without mixing (except a bit
on downline but I think I can get rid of that).<br>
<br>
I gotta say thanks to Bryan and Nat for their help, they were bang on, and I
would suggest to anyone that you give their suggestions and honest try, I bet
you are more than happy with the ! ! resul ts !<br>
<br>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
<br>
Hey guys,<br>
<br>
Well finally got out flying, good thing too since I am off to NY state<br>
again on Monday :-(<br>
<br>
So, here is where I was, I broke down and bought an inclinometer so I<br>
could actually measure the plane directly....since I am too lazy to do<br>
trig.<br>
<br>
Engine, as molded is -2.5 but I was at -3.5, wing +0.8, stab +0.1.<br>
<br>
So I got as much of the down out of it as possible which leaves me at -1,<br>
I can't do any more without shimming the motor further out for more<br>
clearance spinner to nose ring. I put the wing back to +0.5 and left the<br>
stab alone.<br>
<br>
First flight today, removed the left rudder KE mix I had (had none on<br>
right rudder), and downline mix.<br>
- Plane needed a bit of down trim for level, but was pretty close<br>
- Uplines went to the canopy<br>
- 45 ups inverted pulled over the top fairly hard<br>
- 45 downs upright were pretty decent but still dove a bit - recall this<br>
was my major beef with pr! evi! ou s set up<br>
- knife was pulling to canopy both ways<br>
<br>
Second flight - moved CG back as I have felt that it was too far forward<br>
in general, and I think you would agree if you saw where it was.<br>
- more down trim<br>
- Uplines became very close<br>
- knife both ways was pretty good, really solid with right rudder, and<br>
very very close on left (slight belly pitch)...probably not worth mixing<br>
out<br>
- 45 downs upright were getting better<br>
- downline mix reduced 2% from start<br>
- 45 ups inverted better<br>
<br>
Third flight - took out 1/2 turn of incidence, which by trig should put me<br>
at 0.41+ on the wings<br>
- uplines became perfect, or really close...would need more flights in<br>
various conditions to nail<br>
- everything else was really close<br>
<br>
Fourth flight - decided to adjust stab since I was carrying a little up<br>
elevator, so I took 1/2 turn out of adjuster which should being it close<br>
to 0<br>
- this pretty much sealed it<br>
- uplines are as before,! very ! very cl ose<br>
- no KE mix - even in the KE loop at high deflections its really, really<br>
good<br>
- took another 1% out of my downline mix (I am at 2%, started at 5%)<br>
- 45 ups inverted are really good, just a slight arc over the top<br>
- 45 down upright is finally straight.<br>
<br>
I need to spend some more time on it to really get a good feel, but I<br>
think the downthrust was causing a lot of problems to this plane. I have<br>
never had it in all aspects of flight this close yet. I am anxious to get<br>
more time on it and see if the changes really stick. Unfortunately on<br>
Sunday this plane is going to a buddy but I plan on incorporating all<br>
these changes on the new Twister which is why I wanted to get it figured<br>
out now :)<br>
<br>
Any further comments? CG is probably around 33% of MAC, but to be exact I<br>
would have to calculate.<br>
<br>
Upline snaps are as you say <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City>,
on axis with no need to lead....I was<br>
pretty happy to see that re! sult :) <br>
<B! R>C had<br>
<br>
<br>
> > > From: "Chad Northeast" <<a
href="mailto:chadnortheast@shaw.ca">chadnortheast@shaw.ca</a>><br>
> > > To: "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> > > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:57 PM<br>
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Ok you trim masters, here is a tricky one for you.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Bryan and I have been through this a bit last year but I<br>
> ran out of<br>
> > time<br>
> > > > before the Worlds to fix it and just flew with what I had.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > On my Twister I have this pesky problem, the setup is like
so,<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > wing = 1/2+ <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryans</st1:place></st1:City>
suggestion and I like it<br>
> > > > stab = 0<br>
> > > > motor ! = facto ry cl! aims 2. 5 down, have not measured
but<br>
> could if asked,<br>
> > I<br>
> > > > have added more to cure a problem see below<br>
> > > > CG = has been anywhere from 275 to 300mm from TE mostly<br>
> with the same<br>
> > > > result. Currently its around 285-290 and it feels<br>
> good at that point.<br>
> > 45<br>
> > > > ups inverted track almost hands off if under enough power.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Symptoms,<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Plane flies well, at this setup I need 0 mix right rudder<br>
> to ele in<br>
> > knife,<br>
> > > > and about 2% up ele with left rudder in knife,<br>
> > > > about 1/32" down elevator with idle to fix a downline<br>
> > > > Added downthrust as the increase in wing inc. and more<br>
> forward CG<br>
> > really<br>
> > > > helped the mix in knife and made rollers ! easier, but<br>
! > fo rced an<br>
> > increase in<br>
> > > > downthrust as the plane started pulling to the canopy on<br>
> uplines.> > > Downline mix remained the same.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > The big problem I cannot resolve is this, a 45 deg down<br>
> upright (motor<br>
> > at<br>
> > > > idle) the plane pitches to the belly and will not track on<br>
> its own for<br>
> > any<br>
> > > > length of time. If I switch the idle-down mix off<br>
> its rock solid on<br>
> > that<br>
> > > > line.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > I am open to all suggestions now that I have a bit of time<br>
> to play<br>
> > with<br>
> > > > this, I hope <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City>
chimes in some more as I would like to<br>
> continue> where<br>
> > > > we left off last fall. If you suggest something I<br>
> will do my best to<br>
> > give<br>
> >! > & gt; it a go! and le t you know how it works (provided it
doesn't<br>
> snow!)> > ><br>
> > > > The plane is basically super locked in with this setup,<br>
> except for the<br>
> > > > silly 45 down upright, which is a problem in cubans and
such.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Comments and thoughts from the masters are most<br>
> appreciated :) I<br>
> > consider<br>
> > > > myself one of the, cant really trim that well but can fly<br>
> through it<br>
> > just<br>
> > > > fine types :)<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> > > > <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> > > > <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_!"
blank>h ttp://lists.n! srca.or g/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> > ><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><br>
To: chad@f3acanada.org, "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Joy of Trim<br>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:16:33 +0000<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.! nsrca.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<st1:PersonName w:st="on">home</st1:PersonName>remodeling2003@yahoo.com><br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Joy of Trim<br>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 07:32:52 +0000<br>
<br>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________<br>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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