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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Just remember <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City>’s three golden rules: # 2 and # 3
are the secret-don’t let the plane fool you!!! It ends up being an
endless loop, each time the errors get smaller, but it can really drive you
nuts…but it is possible.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>#1 an incidence meter no
matter what kind dig. may be better,,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>#2 honesty without it
you will deceive yourself into believing it`s <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>trimmed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>#3 patience ,,,,I know I
just lost some of you But , there is only <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>one of these three you can
do without ,,, it`s the inc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> meter,, the other two
will guide you if you stay at it till it`s right.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Derek Koopowitz<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 15 April 2008 12:28
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Joy of Trim</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Sorry Nat... I must have blown right by
this one! <along with the wind></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>We had great weather this past weekend -
temps in the high 80's and little to no wind. I got a chance to finally
do some decent trimming over the weekend (Sunday especially) and I think the
plane is just about trimmed to my liking. I did add nose weight (battery
pack) and that has definitely helped as well.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Mixes:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Downline - down ele to maintain straight
line - 2%</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>KE - both require up ele (5% on one side
and 8% on the other) - also need ail. to maintain KE</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I also have a low throttle - ail mix (1%)
to counteract a very slight roll to the left when coming off throttle.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Nat Penton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, April 14, 2008 7:15
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Joy of Trim</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Derek, are you keeping your mixes secret <G></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net" title="natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat
Penton</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Saturday, April
12, 2008 8:26 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Joy of Trim<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Derek, any good weather yet - what mixes are you using ?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" title="derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">Derek
Koopowitz</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org" title="chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>
; <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Thursday, April
10, 2008 11:13 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Joy of Trim<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>That is great news, <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
I'm glad to hear that the issues got resolved.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I'm also very close on my
setup... my stab is at 0 and the wings are almost +.5. The plane comes
standard without downthrust and I have since added some to help with the pull
to the canopy in the upline - its almost 100% but not quite. I think I
may still be a little tail heavy and will add some nose weight when I get a day
that is calm - it has been a little breezy here. Overall my plane is
flying much better now as well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Chad Northeast <<a
href="mailto:chadnortheast@shaw.ca">chadnortheast@shaw.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Guys<br>
<br>
A while back I posted this, and have recently got around to the suggestions.
Both Bryan and Nat said that the TL was far too much negative as the
Twister has -2.5 deg molded into the fuse. So away I went, here is a copy
of the email (just below) I sent to them after my flights to resolve it.<br>
<br>
Before last week you could have never convinced me that you could get a plane
neutral in knife edge without giving up something....well I officially stand
corrected :-) They know their stuff, were right on the money and the
Twister goes pretty much anywhere you point it now without mixing (except a bit
on downline but I think I can get rid of that).<br>
<br>
I gotta say thanks to Bryan and Nat for their help, they were bang on, and I
would suggest to anyone that you give their suggestions and honest try, I bet
you are more than happy with the results!<br>
<br>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
<br>
Hey guys,<br>
<br>
Well finally got out flying, good thing too since I am off to NY state<br>
again on Monday :-(<br>
<br>
So, here is where I was, I broke down and bought an inclinometer so I<br>
could actually measure the plane directly....since I am too lazy to do<br>
trig.<br>
<br>
Engine, as molded is -2.5 but I was at -3.5, wing +0.8, stab +0.1.<br>
<br>
So I got as much of the down out of it as possible which leaves me at -1,<br>
I can't do any more without shimming the motor further out for more<br>
clearance spinner to nose ring. I put the wing back to +0.5 and left the<br>
stab alone.<br>
<br>
First flight today, removed the left rudder KE mix I had (had none on<br>
right rudder), and downline mix.<br>
- Plane needed a bit of down trim for level, but was pretty close<br>
- Uplines went to the canopy<br>
- 45 ups inverted pulled over the top fairly hard<br>
- 45 downs upright were pretty decent but still dove a bit - recall this<br>
was my major beef with previous setup<br>
- knife was pulling to canopy both ways<br>
<br>
Second flight - moved CG back as I have felt that it was too far forward<br>
in general, and I think you would agree if you saw where it was.<br>
- more down trim<br>
- Uplines became very close<br>
- knife both ways was pretty good, really solid with right rudder, and<br>
very very close on left (slight belly pitch)...probably not worth mixing<br>
out<br>
- 45 downs upright were getting better<br>
- downline mix reduced 2% from start<br>
- 45 ups inverted better<br>
<br>
Third flight - took out 1/2 turn of incidence, which by trig should put me<br>
at 0.41+ on the wings<br>
- uplines became perfect, or really close...would need more flights in<br>
various conditions to nail<br>
- everything else was really close<br>
<br>
Fourth flight - decided to adjust stab since I was carrying a little up<br>
elevator, so I took 1/2 turn out of adjuster which should being it close<br>
to 0<br>
- this pretty much sealed it<br>
- uplines are as before, very very close<br>
- no KE mix - even in the KE loop at high deflections its really, really<br>
good<br>
- took another 1% out of my downline mix (I am at 2%, started at 5%)<br>
- 45 ups inverted are really good, just a slight arc over the top<br>
- 45 down upright is finally straight.<br>
<br>
I need to spend some more time on it to really get a good feel, but I<br>
think the downthrust was causing a lot of problems to this plane. I have<br>
never had it in all aspects of flight this close yet. I am anxious to get<br>
more time on it and see if the changes really stick. Unfortunately on<br>
Sunday this plane is going to a buddy but I plan on incorporating all<br>
these changes on the new Twister which is why I wanted to get it figured<br>
out now :)<br>
<br>
Any further comments? CG is probably around 33% of MAC, but to be exact I<br>
would have to calculate.<br>
<br>
Upline snaps are as you say <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City>,
on axis with no need to lead....I was<br>
pretty happy to see that result :)<br>
<br>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
<br>
<br>
> > > From: "Chad Northeast" <<a
href="mailto:chadnortheast@shaw.ca">chadnortheast@shaw.ca</a>><br>
> > > To: "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> > > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:57 PM<br>
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Ok you trim masters, here is a tricky one for you.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Bryan and I have been through this a bit last year but I<br>
> ran out of<br>
> > time<br>
> > > > before the Worlds to fix it and just flew with what I had.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > On my Twister I have this pesky problem, the setup is like
so,<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > wing = 1/2+ <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryans</st1:place></st1:City>
suggestion and I like it<br>
> > > > stab = 0<br>
> > > > motor = factory claims 2.5 down, have not measured but<br>
> could if asked,<br>
> > I<br>
> > > > have added more to cure a problem see below<br>
> > > > CG = has been anywhere from 275 to 300mm from TE mostly<br>
> with the same<br>
> > > > result. Currently its around 285-290 and it feels<br>
> good at that point.<br>
> > 45<br>
> > > > ups inverted track almost hands off if under enough power.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Symptoms,<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Plane flies well, at this setup I need 0 mix right rudder<br>
> to ele in<br>
> > knife,<br>
> > > > and about 2% up ele with left rudder in knife,<br>
> > > > about 1/32" down elevator with idle to fix a downline<br>
> > > > Added downthrust as the increase in wing inc. and more<br>
> forward CG<br>
> > really<br>
> > > > helped the mix in knife and made rollers easier, but<br>
> forced an<br>
> > increase in<br>
> > > > downthrust as the plane started pulling to the canopy on<br>
> uplines.> > > Downline mix remained the same.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > The big problem I cannot resolve is this, a 45 deg down<br>
> upright (motor<br>
> > at<br>
> > > > idle) the plane pitches to the belly and will not track on<br>
> its own for<br>
> > any<br>
> > > > length of time. If I switch the idle-down mix off<br>
> its rock solid on<br>
> > that<br>
> > > > line.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > I am open to all suggestions now that I have a bit of time<br>
> to play<br>
> > with<br>
> > > > this, I hope <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City>
chimes in some more as I would like to<br>
> continue> where<br>
> > > > we left off last fall. If you suggest something I<br>
> will do my best to<br>
> > give<br>
> > > > it a go and let you know how it works (provided it doesn't<br>
> snow!)> > ><br>
> > > > The plane is basically super locked in with this setup,<br>
> except for the<br>
> > > > silly 45 down upright, which is a problem in cubans and
such.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Comments and thoughts from the masters are most<br>
> appreciated :) I<br>
> > consider<br>
> > > > myself one of the, cant really trim that well but can fly<br>
> through it<br>
> > just<br>
> > > > fine types :)<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> > > > <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> > > > <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> > ><br>
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