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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Vince, you would be amazed at what having a
well-trimmed airplane can compensate for... Even my flying looks decent with
Bryan's airplanes... The coolest thing I noticed was when I was flying his
composite Shinden (production model)... I was doing a 4-point roll and
dumb-thumbed the backside rudder... as ugly as it looked I was still able to
recover and didn't lose much from the original line. A well trimmed airplane
will fly a good line no matter what attitude it's in, and simply giving a little
wrong rudder for a split second won't kill a maneuver (or the one that follows
for that matter).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=chad@f3acanada.org
href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:43
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Joy of
Trim</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I believe that the Abbra has the same problem. As I said before, my
electric version had similar negative TL. I adjusted to be close to
zero. I flew fist time last weekend. That was my first
fly this year. I really have so many trim problems in my fingers
and brain that I can not give good results in trimming the plane.
Also, it was very windy but it is clear that the results are similar to your
results. I will try to fly this weekend if weather cooperates. I
will report more details as soon as I have chance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Right now I am here: wings +0.8, stab -0.5, TL -0.5. I will
try to get the TL closer to 0 before flying this weekend. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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Original message -------------- <BR>From: Chad Northeast
<chadnortheast@shaw.ca> <BR><BR>> Guys <BR>> <BR>> A while
back I posted this, and have recently got around to the suggestions.
<BR>> Both Bryan and Nat said that the TL was far too much negative as
the Twister has <BR>> -2.5 deg molded into the fuse. So away I went, here
is a copy of the email <BR>> (just below) I sent to them after my flights
to resolve it. <BR>> <BR>> Before last week you could have never
convinced me that you could get a plane <BR>> neutral in knife edge
without giving up something....well I officially stand <BR>> corrected
:-) They know their stuff, were right on the money and the Twister <BR>>
goes pretty much anywhere you point it now without mixing (except a bit on
<BR>> downline but I think I can get rid of that). <BR>> <BR>> I
gotta say thanks ! to Brya n and Nat for their help, they were bang on, and
I <BR>> would suggest to anyone that you give their suggestions and
honest try, I bet <BR>> you are more than happy with the results!
<BR>> <BR>> Chad <BR>> <BR>> Hey guys, <BR>> <BR>> Well
finally got out flying, good thing too since I am off to NY state <BR>>
again on Monday :-( <BR>> <BR>> So, here is where I was, I broke down
and bought an inclinometer so I <BR>> could actually measure the plane
directly....since I am too lazy to do <BR>> trig. <BR>> <BR>>
Engine, as molded is -2.5 but I was at -3.5, wing +0.8, stab +0.1. <BR>>
<BR>> So I got as much of the down out of it as possible which leaves me
at -1, <BR>> I can't do any more without shimming the motor further out
for more <BR>> clearance spinner to nose ring. I put the wing back to
+0.5 and left the <BR>> stab alone. <BR>> <BR>> First flight today,
removed the left rudder KE mix I had (had none on <BR!>> r ight rudder),
and downline mix. <BR>> - Plane needed a bit of down trim for level, but
was pretty close <BR>> - Uplines went to the canopy <BR>> - 45 ups
inverted pulled over the top fairly hard <BR>> - 45 downs upright were
pretty decent but still dove a bit - recall this <BR>> was my major beef
with previous setup <BR>> - knife was pulling to canopy both ways
<BR>> <BR>> Second flight - moved CG back as I have felt that it was
too far forward <BR>> in general, and I think you would agree if you saw
where it was. <BR>> - more down trim <BR>> - Uplines became very close
<BR>> - knife both ways was pretty good, really solid with right rudder,
and <BR>> very very close on left (slight belly pitch)...probably not
worth mixing <BR>> out <BR>> - 45 downs upright were getting better
<BR>> - downline mix reduced 2% from start <BR>> - 45 ups inverted
better <BR>> <BR>> Third flight - took out 1/2 turn of incidence,
which by tr! ig shou ld put me <BR>> at 0.41+ on the wings <BR>> -
uplines became perfect, or really close...would need more flights in
<BR>> various conditions to nail <BR>> - everything else was really
close <BR>> <BR>> Fourth flight - decided to adjust stab since I was
carrying a little up <BR>> elevator, so I took 1/2 turn out of adjuster
which should being it close <BR>> to 0 <BR>> - this pretty much sealed
it <BR>> - uplines are as before, very very close <BR>> - no KE mix -
even in the KE loop at high deflections its really, really <BR>> good
<BR>> - took another 1% out of my downline mix (I am at 2%, started at
5%) <BR>> - 45 ups inverted are really good, just a slight arc over the
top <BR>> - 45 down upright is finally straight. <BR>> <BR>> I need
to spend some more time on it to really get a good feel, but I <BR>>
think the downthrust was causing a lot of problems to this plane. I have
<BR>> never had it in all aspects of flight ! this cl ose yet. I am
anxious to get <BR>> more time on it and see if the changes really stick.
Unfortunately on <BR>> Sunday this plane is going to a buddy but I plan
on incorporating all <BR>> these changes on the new Twister which is why
I wanted to get it figured <BR>> out now :) <BR>> <BR>> Any further
comments? CG is probably around 33% of MAC, but to be exact I <BR>> would
have to calculate. <BR>> <BR>> Upline snaps are as you say Bryan, on
axis with no need to lead....I was <BR>> pretty happy to see that result
:) <BR>> <BR>> Chad <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> > > > From:
"Chad Northeast" <CHADNORTHEAST@SHAW.CA><BR>> > > > To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> > > >
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:57 PM <BR>> > > > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim <BR>> > > > <BR>> >
> > <BR>> > > > > Ok you trim masters, here is a tric!
ky one for you. <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > >
Bryan and I have been through this a bit last year but I <BR>> > ran
out of <BR>> > > time <BR>> > > > > before the
Worlds to fix it and just flew with what I had. <BR>> > > > >
<BR>> > > > > On my Twister I have this pesky problem, the
setup is like so, <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > >
wing = 1/2+ Bryans suggestion and I like it <BR>> > > > >
stab = 0 <BR>> > > > > motor = factory claims 2.5 down, have
not measured but <BR>> > could if asked, <BR>> > > I <BR>>
> > > > have added more to cure a problem see below <BR>>
> > > > CG = has been anywhere from 275 to 300mm from TE mostly
<BR>> > with the same <BR>> > > > > result. Currently
its around 285-290 and it feels <BR>> > good at that point. <BR>>
> > 45 <BR>> &g! t; > > > ups inverted track almost
hands off if under enough power. <BR>> > > > > <BR>> >
> > > Symptoms, <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > >
> > Plane flies well, at this setup I need 0 mix right rudder <BR>>
> to ele in <BR>> > > knife, <BR>> > > > > and
about 2% up ele with left rudder in knife, <BR>> > > > >
about 1/32" down elevator with idle to fix a downline <BR>> > >
> > Added downthrust as the increase in wing inc. and more <BR>>
> forward CG <BR>> > > really <BR>> > > > >
helped the mix in knife and made rollers easier, but <BR>> > forced an
<BR>> > > increase in <BR>> > > > > downthrust as
the plane started pulling to the canopy on <BR>> > uplines.> >
> Downline mix remained the same. <BR>> > > > > <BR>>
> > > > The big problem I cannot resolve is this,! a 45 d eg
down <BR>> > upright (motor <BR>> > > at <BR>> > >
> > idle) the plane pitches to the belly and will not track on
<BR>> > its own for <BR>> > > any <BR>> > > >
> length of time. If I switch the idle-down mix off <BR>> > its
rock solid on <BR>> > > that <BR>> > > > > line.
<BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > > I am open to all
suggestions now that I have a bit of time <BR>> > to play <BR>>
> > with <BR>> > > > > this, I hope Bryan chimes in
some more as I would like to <BR>> > continue> where <BR>> >
> > > we left off last fall. If you suggest something I <BR>>
> will do my best to <BR>> > > give <BR>> > > > >
it a go and let you know how it works (provided it doesn't <BR>> >
snow!)> > > <BR>> > > > > The plane is basically
super locked in with this set! up, <BR>> > except for the <BR>>
> > > > silly 45 down upright, which is a problem in cubans and
such. <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > > Comments and
thoughts from the masters are most <BR>> > appreciated :) I <BR>>
> > consider <BR>> > > > > myself one of the, cant
really trim that well but can fly <BR>> > through it <BR>> >
> just <BR>> > > > > fine types :) <BR>> > > >
> <BR>> > > > > Chad <BR>> > > > > <BR>>
> > > > _______________________________________________ <BR>>
> > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> > > >
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> > > > >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <BR>> > >
> <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.! nsrca.o rg
<BR>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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