<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document>
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 9">
<meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 9">
<link rel=File-List href="cid:filelist.xml@01C881CD.D7CFD5A0">
<link rel=Edit-Time-Data href="cid:editdata.mso@01C881CD.D7CFD5A0">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
<o:DoNotRelyOnCSS/>
</o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:WordDocument>
<w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>
<w:DocumentKind>DocumentEmail</w:DocumentKind>
<w:EnvelopeVis/>
<w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/>
</w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:1627421319 -2147483648 8 0 66047 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.MsoNormalIndent, li.MsoNormalIndent, div.MsoNormalIndent
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p
{margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;
mso-hansi-font-family:Arial;
mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1027"/>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/>
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue style='tab-interval:.5in'>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Lance you
are right. I returned to pattern about three years ago and as my experience
became more current I became more critical of the aircraft performance mostly
due to seeing defects not previously observed. The more we do this the more
critical we become and are often frustrated with the complexity of trimming <u>our</u>
aircraft to suit <u>our</u> needs. I am all alone up here in eastern Washington
and I can only learn by trying things and noting the result. The only advise I
can offer is do something it will either get worse or better. Either way our
understanding of cause and affect advances.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Trimming effort
is like practicing, a moderate amount frequently limit the frustration. When
you run out of ideas pop a top and pick it up another day.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller
<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Lance Van Nostrand<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, March 08, 2008
4:53 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Chris,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The
"standard" you speak of doesn't exist. There are probably many
ways to have a plane in trim but you need to start down a path that has a
theoretical ideal and try to achieve it. Start with 0-0, .5-0, .5-.5 and
know what an ideal plane with these setups is supposed to do in up, down, KE,
upright, level flight. this also helps you select thrustline, CG starting
points. Once you have a target and a contxt to interpret your fight test
results then you can make proper trim corrections. This is a game of
tradeoffs and tuning, but it's not random.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I've
observed really good pilots in my area put down another really good pilot's
trim theories, but as I said before, I would never do that. If good
results are achieved then we have to respect that there is a whole trimming
philosophy known to that pilot on how to trim a plane and there are at least 10
philosophies that all get the right result. I also should point out that
I totally agree with Bryan's comment that everyone has their own threshold of
what is "good enough". This is NOT a slam against a pilot that
may not be able to feel a certain problem because he's not good enough, as some
might interpret. The truth is, we all have certain trim problems that we
seem to naturally overcome or are not sensitive too and others that drive us
crazy. your trimming philosophy needs to address the most problematic
trim issues for your personal style, sensitivity and ability.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>--Lance</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com" title="homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan
fitzsimmons</a> </span></font></div>
<font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Saturday, March 08,
2008 2:59 PM</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I completely
agree with this Lance. </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>This is what
baffles me with every setup.. Wondering if I have it as good as I can. Or if
maybe I should change my cg, and my incidences.. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>So in setup,
should I just go with the standard 1/2 degree positive in the wing, then
adjust cg till the ele is centered? No, that doesn't give me the best cg for my
style of flying. Or do I adjust the wing incidence till it's centered? No, cuz
then I will still have undesirable results in lines and knife.. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>This is
something I have tried to say in my district. It's always pushed to practice,
practice, practice. But I feel alot of us are "setup" challenged. I
know I am.. We are starting to have one day practice contests here in D7 this
year.. I think there are 3.. All the practice in the world doesn't make a
person fly much better if he or she is fighting their setup.. It seems those
that really know how to setup a plane don't want to tell their
secrets.. Can't blame them. Maybe that's why they are world champions.. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Chris<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@tx.rr.com></span></i></b> wrote:</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Matt,<br>
I can't disagree with anyone's final results but there has to be more going <br>
on with other trim/alignments than just CG and incidence. All things being <br>
in balance, i.e. the plane flies straight and level with no inputs, let's <br>
then add 3oz as a spinner weight. Now the plane drops and requires uptrim <br>
or increased incidence to return us to hands off level flight. Now roll the <br>
plane inverted. That up trim or up inc is now down trim/inc. The weight on <br>
the spinner is still there and the CG hasn't moved. The plane will not fly <br>
hands off and its pull to the ground has to be more than before we started.<br>
<br>
I understand the cosmetic interest in eliminating visible elv trim but at <br>
the small deflections we are talking about, elv trim is simply changing the <br>
angle of attack of the stab. We could eliminate the visible trim by <br>
adjusting the stab incidence instead of the wing with no side effects.<br>
<br>
--Lance<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: "Matthew Frederick" <MJFREDERICK@COX.NET><br>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><br>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:29 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<br>
<br>
<br>
> Lance, George is correct that the change in incidence is so that the <br>
> weight<br>
> shift does not affect elevator trim. I have to disagree with his thought<br>
> that you'll have to hold 15% down elevator when inverted. I fly airplanes<br>
> that Bryan has trimmed all the time, and there is a moment when you roll<br>
> inverted with his airplanes that you don't even need elevator at first.<br>
> First time I flew his Shinden I did a slow roll and I only had to
"think"<br>
> about the elevator and rudder inputs. Makes it a lot easier to concentrate<br>
> on the roll rate.<br>
><br>
> Matt<br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> From: "george w. kennie" <GEOBET@GIS.NET><br>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><br>
> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:01 PM<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<br>
><br>
><br>
>> I'm with you Lance. You move that C.G. forward and increase the
incidence<br>
>> to<br>
>> support the weight shift and you'd better be prepared to hold 15% down<br>
>> elev<br>
>> when inverted, but then what do I know?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
>> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><br>
>> To: <SHINDEN1@COX.NET>; "NSRCA Mailing List"<br>
>> <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><br>
>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:34 PM<br>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> Thanks Bryan. I will definitely move the cg forward a bit. Let me
ask<br>
>>> where you are going with the positive incidence suggestion. <br>
>>> Misalignment<br>
>>> from wing to stab sets up a situation where the positive incidence
when<br>
>>> upright is negative incidence when inverted. Of course the
elevator <br>
>>> trim<br>
>>> is<br>
>>> adjusted to compensate. Does this misalignment alter the roll axis
in<br>
>>> flight?<br>
>>> --Lance<br>
>>><br>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
>>> From: <SHINDEN1@COX.NET><br>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><br>
>>> Cc: "Lance Van Nostrand" <PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><br>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 10:07 PM<br>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>> Lance<br>
>>>> your airplane is tail heavy<br>
>>>> increase your wing inc. and move the c/g forward and your
problem will<br>
>>>> go<br>
>>>> away.<br>
>>>> this goes for IMAC airplanes also.<br>
>>>> we are over thinking the problem.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> design, verticle c/g has no effect on this problem<br>
>>>> Bryan<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ---- Lance Van Nostrand <PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM>wrote:<br>
>>>>> This thread is timely because I've been experimenting with
<br>
>>>>> differential<br>
>>>>> recently on a new design that seems to need it. Never
needed it <br>
>>>>> before<br>
>>>>> on a<br>
>>>>> pattern plane but now I might. My test is to fly very
high, point the<br>
>>>>> nose<br>
>>>>> directly at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should
be axial,<br>
>>>>> but<br>
>>>>> remember that axial is along the vertical CG, which may
not be a line<br>
>>>>> that<br>
>>>>> pierces the wing LE/TE. You need to do it a few times to
be sure that<br>
>>>>> their<br>
>>>>> is an axis that everything rotates around and that line is
straight.<br>
>>>>> If<br>
>>>>> it<br>
>>>>> wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to determine
this is to <br>
>>>>> do<br>
>>>>> unlimited rolls while flying straight up. If the airplane <br>
>>>>> consistently<br>
>>>>> arcs<br>
>>>>> off its vertical line, you have a problem.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Aerodynamics suggests two contributors. One is that the
lowered <br>
>>>>> aileron<br>
>>>>> increases the lift of the airfoil and lift creates drag so
this wing<br>
>>>>> may<br>
>>>>> pull the plane off axis. the other is that the spiral
slipstream of <br>
>>>>> the<br>
>>>>> prop<br>
>>>>> is pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so
up/right<br>
>>>>> aileron<br>
>>>>> is<br>
>>>>> more effective than up/left and down/left is more
effective than<br>
>>>>> down/right.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> The overall effect for most pattern planes is minimal and
usually<br>
>>>>> ignorable,<br>
>>>>> but on IMAC style planes these factors can be significant
and the<br>
>>>>> resulting<br>
>>>>> differential corrections may need to be adjusted with
something as<br>
>>>>> simple<br>
>>>>> as<br>
>>>>> a prop change (from 3 blade to 2 for example).<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> the correction of course is to start playing with aileron <br>
>>>>> differential.<br>
>>>>> Given the contributors I've suggested, its not a given
which way you <br>
>>>>> go<br>
>>>>> with<br>
>>>>> the differential to correct the problem and the answer
might not even<br>
>>>>> be<br>
>>>>> symmetrical.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Note that contributor #1 above will change if you are
flying upright <br>
>>>>> or<br>
>>>>> inverted, so it would seem that a correction for upright
flight would<br>
>>>>> simply<br>
>>>>> exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same
for any<br>
>>>>> flight<br>
>>>>> mode but is throttle dependent.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> --Lance<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
>>>>> From: "Koenig, Tom" <TOM.KOENIG@ACTEWAGL.COM.AU><br>
>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><br>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM<br>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> > My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this,
the more<br>
>>>>> > questions<br>
>>>>> > I<br>
>>>>> > have.........rather than answers!<br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> > Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a Voodoo X(
Nat??) maybe <br>
>>>>> > the<br>
>>>>> > answer??<br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> > I still 'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a
0 differential<br>
>>>>> > set<br>
>>>>> > up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should
that be some<br>
>>>>> > sort<br>
>>>>> > of equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my
case, it seems <br>
>>>>> > to<br>
>>>>> > be<br>
>>>>> > Pilot dependant!!!<br>
>>>>> > I'm starting to think that my rudder control has
turned to the<br>
>>>>> > proverbial trying to micro analyse what's happening!<br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> > Tom<br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> > -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>>>> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of<br>
>>>>> > shinden1@cox.net<br>
>>>>> > Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM<br>
>>>>> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> > what happens on a 4piont?<br>
>>>>> > Bryan<br>
>>>>> > ---- Del Rykert <DRYKERT2@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>wrote:<br>
>>>>> >> The general consensus has been that the faster
moving molecules <br>
>>>>> >> over<br>
>>>>> > the top surface don't require as big as a deflection
as the aileron<br>
>>>>> > that<br>
>>>>> > deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one
tries to achieve<br>
>>>>> > is<br>
>>>>> > the plane tracks as purely straight on a string as
possible while <br>
>>>>> > one<br>
>>>>> > rolls both directions without introducing any yaw.<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> Del<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>>>> >> From: <GLMILLER3@SUDDENLINK.NET><br>
>>>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><br>
>>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM<br>
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more
- Rolls<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> > Nat and all you other aerodynamicists,<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > I thought that the rational for
"aileron differential" was that<br>
>>>>> > upward deflection causes more drag than downward
deflection so to<br>
>>>>> > equalize drag and prevent yaw with aileron
deflection, aileron<br>
>>>>> > differential is needed. It seems that you guys are
now saying that<br>
>>>>> > ain't so. Please elaborate.<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > George<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > ---- Nat Penton <NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote:<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > =============<br>
>>>>> >> > IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK. With
top hinge, to achieve<br>
>>>>> > equal vertical travel of the trailing edge requires
different <br>
>>>>> > angular<br>
>>>>> > travel, up vs down. The objective is zero aerodynamic
differential.<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent
separation but, how are<br>
>>>>> > you able to fair the gap using the top hinge ? Nat<br>
>>>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>>>> >> > From: ronlock@comcast.net<br>
>>>>> >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>
>>>>> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM<br>
>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > And while your at it, I'd appreciate some
discussion of the<br>
>>>>> >> > impact<br>
>>>>> > of the top hinge system as seen on Viavat, and
Prestige birds -<br>
>>>>> > (top<br>
>>>>> > hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at
deflection)<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Thanks, Ron Lockhart<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > -------------- Original message
-------------- <br>
>>>>> >> > From: vicenterc@comcast.net<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Nat,<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Could you explain why the differential
should be different for<br>
>>>>> > non-center hinged? I understand that the mechanical
configuration <br>
>>>>> > of<br>
>>>>> > non-center hinged requires differential to obtain
same travel in <br>
>>>>> > both<br>
>>>>> > directions. However, the travel up and down should be
close to<br>
>>>>> > equal.<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Thanks,<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > --<br>
>>>>> >> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > -------------- Original message
-------------- <br>
>>>>> >> > From: "Nat Penton" <NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET><br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Tom<br>
>>>>> >> > It's just something that is peculiar to the
Southern<br>
>>>>> > Hemisphere.<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Changing wing incidence will not help.
Unless things are<br>
>>>>> >> > really<br>
>>>>> > screwed up <G>, at our roll rates, centrifugal forces
are too low to<br>
>>>>> > cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero
speaking ( same<br>
>>>>> > up/down if center hinged ).<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > I find the best check is the fast half-roll
in the vertical<br>
>>>>> >> > up.<br>
>>>>> > Regards Nat<br>
>>>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
>>>>> >> > From: Koenig, Tom<br>
>>>>> >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>
>>>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24 PM<br>
>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Hi Troy!<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Thanks for the info. I thought you would be
toiling away <br>
>>>>> >> > on<br>
>>>>> > the next developmental stage of these engines!!<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get
flying again. I<br>
>>>>> >> > am<br>
>>>>> > looking forward to running this little beast. I am
still a little<br>
>>>>> > concerned in keeping it quiet though.<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x
12 two bladers<br>
>>>>> > but I just cant see how I'll shut the thing up with
these paint<br>
>>>>> > stirrers??<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Also-one more question to any of you out
there in pattern<br>
>>>>> > land.<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > I have struggled with aileron differential
for years. I am<br>
>>>>> > just not happy with the rolls. I have tried various
design fixes-but<br>
>>>>> > about the only one that seems to work is to get the
wing back to 0-0<br>
>>>>> > (<br>
>>>>> > which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or
thumbs)<br>
>>>>> > Differential<br>
>>>>> > itself does not seem to work if the wing is POA (
well...it works <br>
>>>>> > for<br>
>>>>> > half the roll !)<br>
>>>>> >> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run
parallel<br>
>>>>> > ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I
like the feel of<br>
>>>>> > equal% chord ailerons however.<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to
roll as if <br>
>>>>> >> > they<br>
>>>>> > had a string up its ............well you know!<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good
elevator work<br>
>>>>> >> > fixes it ( hence my 0-0 comment)<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > Tom<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>>>> >> > ----<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> >
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>>>> >> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>>>> >> > ----------<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> >> >
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>>>> >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
>>>>> >> >
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>>>> >> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
>>>>> >> ><br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>>>> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
>>>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>>>> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -- <br>
>> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.<br>
>> It has removed 2725 spam emails to date.<br>
>> Paying users do not have this message in their emails.<br>
>> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:39.75pt;text-align:center;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Looking for
last minute shopping deals? <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping">Find
them fast with Yahoo! Search.</a> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:39.75pt;text-align:center;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>