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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And "nobody" includes EVERYBODY ! (even the
ones that appear to make more sense )</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johnferrell@earthlink.net
href="mailto:johnferrell@earthlink.net">John Ferrell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 09, 2008 1:51
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy
of trim</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have become aware of several different
situations where airplanes that measure identical simply don't respond alike.
Not my observation but the consensus of pilot's whose judgment I trust.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There are some airplanes that are very sensitive
to CG changes while identical models seem to be unaffected by major
changes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can only conclude that nobody has all the
answers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR> <BR>"All that is necessary
for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:04
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy
of trim</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>My whole reason for finally joining this list was to learn.. Don't seem
to do that much on the forums.. And the funny thing is, that the problem I'm
having right now, is the setup on my Abbra.. Therefore making me sell it. I
just can't get it right, and I don't know what's wrong.. I know it's an
awesome plane, because I've seen all of Jerry Budd's.. And they all fly
great.. I know someone could set it up correctly.. Just not me apparently..
I've set up many planes to a decent liking before. But I just can't get this
one right.. I've got alot to learn and no teachers around.. I was going to
go to the nats for the first time this year, but it makes it difficult to
shoot for top 10 in Masters like it is.. If it was properly setup, I think
it's achievable though.. I know I have the skills, just not the setup..
</DIV>
<DIV>Hopefully I can get with Jerry then at some point.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris<BR><BR><B><I>Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@tx.rr.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Bryan,<BR>I
have been anticipating your response but now it seems it won't be coming
<BR>soon. Maybe we can take this offline. There's no way anyone could
<BR>interpret my response as being argumentative and I know your are tough
<BR>enough to take a few pin pricks without flinching. Certainly I have my
own <BR>experiences and opinions but those are completely set aside. I
believe <BR>there are always at least 10 correct answers to any modeling
question but <BR>each answer is right within its own context.<BR><BR>In
other words, I start from 0-0 and have my trim process advance from there
<BR>and usually get very good results. I think, if I remember correctly
your <BR>old KF article and our live discussions, you start from 1/2
degree positive <BR>inc in wing and stab and advance from there. Since I
know your path is <BR>different from mine I am trying to learn from you.
this is why I question <BR>and ask for deeper explanation. Maybe it's just
not there. The answer <BR>might be "I never tested in a wind tunnel, can't
explain why it works, but <BR>it does so just try it and enjoy." But I
hate to see you bow out when <BR>someone asks for more details. that makes
Krishlan's comment seem relevant <BR>when, knowing how much you help
others and contribute to this sport, it <BR>shouldn't
be.<BR><BR>--Lance<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
<SHINDEN1@COX.NET><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 5:32
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim<BR><BR><BR>> Ok
Matt<BR>> I accept, your probably right ..<BR>><BR>> I will now
bow out of the discussion it`s not going anywhere and I`m <BR>> waiting
my time trying to inform, it seems all the people I`ve helped <BR>>
accomplish what I`m preaching have quit the sport or they are scared to
<BR>> write !!<BR>> I`ll leave you with this ,<BR>> demand of
perfection is different by each persons ability and goals,<BR>>
sometimes we deceive ourselves in thinking we kow it all or<BR>> we get
caught up in out wording every one and talking nonsense ,, then no
<BR>> one gets anything out of the conversation<BR>> and then, you
die of a thousand pin pricks<G><BR>> I can remember sharing pos inc
setup with Nat on numerous occasions and <BR>> Nat out worded me and
proved me wrong on paper and you know he can ,, in a <BR>> Popeye Fried
chicken House of all places,<BR>> However I find out years Later he now
uses My setup I`m proud <G><BR>> ok ,I`ll stop beating a dead horse I
know better than to start this<BR>><BR>> carry on<BR>>
Bryan<BR>><BR>> ---- rcmaster199@aol.com wrote:<BR>>>
Bryan,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
I respectfully disagree on the upline, full power issue. The downline is
<BR>>> a totally different trim situation because the vectors
involved are <BR>>>
different<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
MattK<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>><BR>>> From: Nat
Penton<BR>>><BR>>> To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>><BR>>> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 7:16
pm<BR>>><BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of
trim<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
I'm thinking, I'm thinking ----- Original Message ----- From: <BR>>>
shinden1@cox.net> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <BR>>>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:53 PM
<BR>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim > Matt, I
refer back to <BR>>> my earlier post > thrust is not the issue.
> wing inc. will always <BR>>> trump thrust,, in power and
influence over vertical > lines. > thrust <BR>>> is a" very
fine tune" issue it should not be used to adjust > tracking
<BR>>> issues > > jump in Nat ,, why do you not need down
thrust on your <BR>>> design?? > Bryan > ----
rcmaster199@aol.com wrote: >> If the model <BR>>> pulls to
canopy on a�FULL POWER�vertical upline and you >> reduce
<BR>>> downthrust, the problem will worsen. You need to add
downthrust >> <BR>>> (about 1 degree initially, and more if
needed). I would not mess with CG, <BR>>> >> at least not yet.
>> >> >> � >> >> >> Horizontal
flight places <BR>>> quite a load on the wing....the wing must lift
>> the load accordingly. <BR>>> Vertical flight removes the
load therefore whatever >> trim was found <BR>>> in horizontal
flight will affect the vertical flight. The >> simplest <BR>>>
fix is downthrust addition for the condition Mike references, >> but
<BR>>> assumes that the model is close to begin with. >>
>> >> � >> >> >> <BR>>> Downline
flight (NO POWER) is a totally different trim scenario and may
<BR>>> >> indeed require wing/stab inc adjustment and CG
adjustment. >> >> >> <BR>>> � >> >>
>> It should be understood�that it is an iterative process to
<BR>>> get "perfect" >> trim. >> >> >> �
>> >> >> MattK >> >> >> >>
<BR>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: J N
<BR>>> Hiller >> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List >>
>> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:33 <BR>>> am >> >>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >>
<BR>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The airplane may be flying
<BR>>> with positive trim. Try reducing the down >> thrust or
move the CG <BR>>> back. >> >> >> If it doesnt
help put it back. >> >> >> Jim Hiller <BR>>>
>> >> >> � >> >> >> -----Original
Message----- >> >> From: <BR>>>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org >> <BR>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Michael
<BR>>> >> Wickizer >> >> Sent: Friday, March 07,
2008 8:19 AM >> >> To: <BR>>> NSRCA Mailing List
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS <BR>>>
Questions+more - Rolls >> >> >> � >> >>
>> Bryan: >> >> � >> >> <BR>>> I
agree that the plane doesn't know which direction it's flying, but then
<BR>>> >> why will a plane fly straight and level then pull to
the canopy in <BR>>> >> uplines?� This has been driving
Brett and me crazy for over a year.� <BR>>> >> Admittedly,
it a much shorter drive for me:) >> >> � >> >>
Mike <BR>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> Date: Thu, 6 Mar <BR>>> 2008 23:13:48 -0500 >> >>
> From: shinden1@cox.net >> >> > To: <BR>>>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org >> >> > Subject: Re:
<BR>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >>
>> > >> >> > Chris ,, <BR>>> the airplane
does not know it`s flying horizontal or vertical >> >> >
<BR>>> the wings are still lifting whether up or down that s why we
can use >> <BR>>> > the vertical up or down to test this
problem , >> >> > Bryan >> >> <BR>>> >
---- krishlan fitzsimmons homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com> wrote: >>
>> <BR>>> > > Lance, >> >> > >
>> >> > > Just a thought though, if going <BR>>>
straight up, up straight down, aren't >> > > the up and down
ailerons <BR>>> both inducing equal drag, no lift? I've >>
> > often wondered if our <BR>>> straight up test is actually
a perfect test for >> > > this. It is for <BR>>> our up
and down lines, but what about our 45's or >> > > horizontals
<BR>>> where we do indeed have lift on the low aileron and drag
>> > > on the <BR>>> other? This would create a
different condition I'm guessing.. >> > > <BR>>>
Probably small, but still a little different because as I mention,
>> > <BR>>> > both create drag on the up or downline..
Still, it's the best test we <BR>>> >> > > have I
guess.. >> >> > > >> >> > > Chris
>> >> > > >> >> > <BR>>> > Lance
Van Nostrand patterndude@tx.rr.com> wrote: >> >> > >
This <BR>>> thread is timely because I've been experimenting with
>> > > <BR>>> differential >> >> > >
recently on a new design that seems to need it. <BR>>> Never needed
it >> > > before on a >> >> > > pattern
plane but now I <BR>>> might. My test is to fly very high, point the
>> > > nose >> >> > > <BR>>> directly
at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be axial, >>
<BR>>> > > but >> >> > > remember that axial
is along the vertical CG, which <BR>>> may not be a line >>
> > that >> >> > > pierces the wing LE/TE. You
<BR>>> need to do it a few times to be sure that >> > >
their >> >> > > is <BR>>> an axis that everything
rotates around and that line is straight. >> > <BR>>> >
If it >> >> > > wobbles, then we have an issue. Another
way to <BR>>> determine this is to >> > > do >>
>> > > unlimited rolls while flying <BR>>> straight up.
If the airplane >> > > consistently arcs >> >>
> > off <BR>>> its vertical line, you have a problem. >>
>> > > >> >> > > <BR>>> Aerodynamics
suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered >> > >
<BR>>> aileron >> >> > > increases the lift of the
airfoil and lift creates <BR>>> drag so this wing >> > >
may >> >> > > pull the plane off axis. the <BR>>>
other is that the spiral slipstream of >> > > the prop
>> >> > > is <BR>>> pushing down on the right wing
and up on the left so up/right >> > > <BR>>> aileron is
>> >> > > more effective than up/left and down/left is
more <BR>>> effective than >> > > down/right. >>
>> > > >> >> > > The overall <BR>>>
effect for most pattern planes is minimal and usually >> > >
ignorable, <BR>>> >> >> > > but on IMAC style
planes these factors can be significant and <BR>>> the >> >
> resulting >> >> > > differential corrections may
need to <BR>>> be adjusted with something as >> > >
simple as >> >> > > a prop <BR>>> change (from 3
blade to 2 for example). >> >> > > >> >>
> > the <BR>>> correction of course is to start playing with
aileron >> > > <BR>>> differential. >> >>
> > Given the contributors I've suggested, its not <BR>>> a
given which way you >> > > go with >> >> > >
the differential to <BR>>> correct the problem and the answer might
not even >> > > be >> >> > > <BR>>>
symmetrical. >> >> > > >> >> > > Note
that contributor #1 above will <BR>>> change if you are flying
upright >> > > or >> >> > > inverted, so it
<BR>>> would seem that a correction for upright flight would
>> > > simply >> <BR>>> >> > >
exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for any
<BR>>> >> > > flight >> >> > > mode
but is throttle dependent. >> >> > > >>
<BR>>> >> > > --Lance >> >> > >
>> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>
<BR>>> >> > > From: "Koenig, Tom" >> >> >
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >> >> > <BR>>> >
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM >> >> > >
Subject: Re: <BR>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls
>> >> > > >> >> > > >>
<BR>>> >> > > > My head is spinning!!! The more I
think about this, the more <BR>>> >> > > > questions
I >> >> > > > have.........rather than answers!
>> <BR>>> >> > > > >> >> > >
> Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a Voodoo <BR>>> X(
Nat??) maybe >> > > > the >> >> > > >
answer?? >> >> > > > >> <BR>>> >>
> > > I still 'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0
<BR>>> differential >> > > > set >> >>
> > > up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that <BR>>> wing to 0 ( or
should that be some >> > > > sort >> >> >
> > of <BR>>> equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my
case, it seems >> > > <BR>>> > to be >>
>> > > > Pilot dependant!!! >> >> > >
> I'm starting to <BR>>> think that my rudder control has turned
to the >> >> > > > proverbial <BR>>> trying to
micro analyse what's happening! >> >> > > > >>
>> > > > Tom <BR>>> >> >> > > >
>> >> > > > -----Original Message----- >>
>> > > > From: <BR>>>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
<BR>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of >> >> > <BR>>> > > shinden1@cox.net >>
>> > > > Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM >>
<BR>>> >> > > > To: NSRCA Mailing List >>
>> > > > Subject: Re: <BR>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > > >> >>
> > > <BR>>> what happens on a 4piont? >> >>
> > > Bryan >> >> > > > ---- Del
<BR>>> Rykert wrote: >> >> > > >> The
general consensus has been that the <BR>>> faster moving molecules
>> > > >> over >> >> > > > the top
surface <BR>>> don't require as big as a deflection as the aileron
>> > > > that >> <BR>>> >> > > >
deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to <BR>>>
achieve >> > > > is >> >> > > > the
plane tracks as purely straight <BR>>> on a string as possible while
>> > > > one >> >> > > > rolls both
<BR>>> directions without introducing any yaw. >> >>
> > >> >> >> > > >> Del <BR>>>
>> >> > > >> >> >> > > >>
----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > >>
<BR>>> From: >> >> > > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing
List" >> >> > > >> Sent: <BR>>> Thursday,
March 06, 2008 2:49 PM >> >> > > >> Subject: Re:
<BR>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >>
>> > > >> >> >> > > <BR>>>
>> >> >> > > >> > Nat and all you other
aerodynamicists, >> >> > > >> <BR>>> >
>> >> > > >> > I thought that the rational for
"aileron differential" <BR>>> was that >> >> > >
> upward deflection causes more drag than downward <BR>>>
deflection so to >> >> > > > equalize drag and
prevent yaw with aileron <BR>>> deflection, aileron >>
>> > > > differential is needed. It seems that <BR>>>
you guys are now saying that >> >> > > > ain't so.
Please elaborate. <BR>>> >> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > George >> >> >
> >> > >> >> > > >> <BR>>> >
---- Nat Penton wrote: >> >> > > >> > >>
>> > > >> > ============= <BR>>> >>
>> > > >> > IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK.
With top hinge, to <BR>>> >> > > >> > achieve
>> >> > > > equal vertical travel of the trailing
<BR>>> edge requires different >> > > > angular
>> >> > > > travel, up vs <BR>>> down. The
objective is zero aerodynamic differential. >> >> > >
>> > <BR>>> >> >> > > >> > Ron I
don't think a fairing would prevent separation but, <BR>>> how
>> > > >> > are >> >> > > > you
able to fair the gap using the <BR>>> top hinge ? Nat >>
>> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>
>> > > <BR>>> >> > From: ronlock@comcast.net
>> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR>>> >> >> > > >> > Sent: Thursday,
March 06, 2008 7:20 AM >> >> > > >> >
<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls
>> >> > > >> <BR>>> > >> >>
> > >> > >> >> > > >> > And
while your at it, I'd appreciate <BR>>> some discussion of the
>> > > >> > impact >> >> > > >
of the top <BR>>> hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds
- >> > > > (top >> <BR>>> >> > >
> hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection) >>
<BR>>> >> > > >> > >> >> > >
>> > Thanks, Ron Lockhart >> >> > > >>
> >> <BR>>> >> > > >> > --------------
Original message -------------- >> >> > > <BR>>>
>> > From: vicenterc@comcast.net >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > >> > Nat, <BR>>>
>> >> > > >> > >> >> > >
>> > Could you explain why the differential <BR>>> should
be different for >> >> > > > non-center hinged? I
understand <BR>>> that the mechanical configuration >> >
> > of >> >> > > > non-center <BR>>>
hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in >> > >
> both >> <BR>>> >> > > > directions.
However, the travel up and down should be close to <BR>>> >>
> > > equal. >> >> > > >> > >>
>> > > >> > Thanks, >> >> > >
>> <BR>>> > >> >> > > >> > --
>> >> > > >> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone >>
>> > <BR>>> > >> > >> >> > >
>> > -------------- Original message -------------- <BR>>>
>> >> > > >> > From: "Nat Penton" >>
>> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
Tom <BR>>> >> >> > > >> > It's just
something that is peculiar to the Southern >> <BR>>> >>
> > > Hemisphere. >> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > Changing wing <BR>>>
incidence will not help. Unless things are really >> >> >
> > screwed <BR>>> up , at our roll rates, centrifugal forces
are too low to >> >> > > > <BR>>> cause a
problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking ( same >>
>> <BR>>> > > > up/down if center hinged ). >>
>> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
I <BR>>> find the best check is the fast half-roll in the vertical
up. >> >> > > <BR>>> > Regards Nat >>
>> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>
>> > > <BR>>> >> > From: Koenig, Tom >>
>> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >>
> <BR>>> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24
PM >> >> > > >> > Subject: <BR>>> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> <BR>>> > >>
>> > > >> > Hi Troy! >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks for
<BR>>> the info. I thought you would be toiling away on >>
>> > > > the next <BR>>> developmental stage of these
engines!! >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
> >> > <BR>>> Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get
flying again. I am >> >> > > <BR>>> > looking
forward to running this little beast. I am still a little >>
<BR>>> >> > > > concerned in keeping it quiet though.
>> >> > > >> > >> >> >
<BR>>> > >> > Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1
x 12 two bladers >> >> <BR>>> > > > but I just
cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint >> <BR>>>
>> > > > stirrers?? >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> > Also-one more <BR>>>
question to any of you out there in pattern >> >> > >
> land. >> >> > <BR>>> > >> > >>
>> > > >> > I have struggled with aileron
differential for <BR>>> years. I am >> >> > > >
just not happy with the rolls. I have tried <BR>>> various design
>> > > > fixes-but >> >> > > > about
the only one that <BR>>> seems to work is to get the wing back to
>> > > > 0-0 ( >> >> > > >
<BR>>> which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or thumbs)
>> > > > <BR>>> Differential >> >> >
> > itself does not seem to work if the wing is <BR>>> POA (
well...it works >> > > > for >> >> > >
> half the roll !) >> <BR>>> >> > > >>
> Another black magic fix appears to be to run parallel >>
>> <BR>>> > > > ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems
to fix it. I like the feel of <BR>>> >> >> > >
> equal% chord ailerons however. >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > <BR>>> >> > I am
frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll as if they >> >>
<BR>>> > > > had a string up its ...........well you know!
>> >> > > >> > >> <BR>>> >>
> > >> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good
elevator work <BR>>> >> >> > > >> > fixes
it ( hence my 0-0 comment) >> >> > > >> >
>> >> <BR>>> > > >> > Tom >>
>> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> <BR>>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>>> >> >> > > >> > ---- >>
>> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > <BR>>>
_______________________________________________ >> >> >
> >> > <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>
>> > > >> > <BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
<BR>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> > > >> > <BR>>> >> >>
> > >> > >> >> > > >> <BR>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>>> >> >> > > >> > ---------- >>
>> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > <BR>>> >> >
_______________________________________________ >> >> >
> >> > <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>
>> > > >> > <BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
<BR>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> > > >> > <BR>>>
_______________________________________________ >> >> >
> >> > <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>
>> > > >> > <BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
<BR>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> > > >> > <BR>>> >> >>
> > > >> >> > > > <BR>>>
_______________________________________________ >> >> >
> > <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >>
> > > <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org >>
>> > > > <BR>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
> > > <BR>>>
_______________________________________________ >> >> >
> > <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >>
> > > <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org >>
>> > > > <BR>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
> > >> <BR>>> >> > >
_______________________________________________ >> >> >
> <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> >
> <BR>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org >> >> >
> <BR>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> > > >> <BR>>> >> > >
>> >> > > >> >> > > Chris >>
>> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >
<BR>>> >> >> > > >> >> > >
>> >> > > --------------------------------- >>
<BR>>> >> > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your
homepage. >> >> > <BR>>>
_______________________________________________ >> >> >
<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>> >> >> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
<BR>>> >> >> >>
_______________________________________________ <BR>>>
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<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms" color=#0000bf size=3>Chris
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