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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yeah that's the truth. A well trimmed airplane
makes your job easier but I've seen a GOOD pilot fly a BAD airplane better
than anyone at the field. No matter how the airplane is set up there are still
many unpredictable things that happen during a sequence (wind) that can only be
addressed with quick reflexes and a lot of stick time. A while ago I flew an
airplane that had the stab. installed incorrectly - it was not perpendicular to
the fin and therefore made loop segments very interesting. Eventually I started
adding some aileron input to "fix" the problem (manually - no mixes). After
a few gallons it looked pretty good! </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>I
eventually fixed the airplane by re-aligning the stab. but it was fun while it
lasted. <LOL> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat
Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:27
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cris</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Like you, when I stated pattern, I felt the
pros were withholding secrets, but eventually found they
are one of us when it comes to trim. They FLY the airplanes.
Some have shown they don't understand trim fundamentals in
published comments - the canalizer ? is a blatant example. They
excell because they practice. Give them the airplane you or I trimmed and they
will beat your but.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I greatly admire them because of their
dedication.
Nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 2:59
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I completely agree with this Lance. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is what baffles me with every setup.. Wondering if I have it as
good as I can. Or if maybe I should change my cg, and my incidences.. </DIV>
<DIV>So in setup, should I just go with the standard 1/2 degree
positive in the wing, then adjust cg till the ele is centered? No, that
doesn't give me the best cg for my style of flying. Or do I adjust the wing
incidence till it's centered? No, cuz then I will still have undesirable
results in lines and knife.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is something I have tried to say in my district. It's always
pushed to practice, practice, practice. But I feel alot of us are "setup"
challenged. I know I am.. We are starting to have one day practice contests
here in D7 this year.. I think there are 3.. All the practice in the world
doesn't make a person fly much better if he or she is fighting their setup..
It seems those that really know how to setup a plane don't want
to tell their secrets.. Can't blame them. Maybe that's why they
are world champions.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris<BR><BR><B><I>Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@tx.rr.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Matt,<BR>I
can't disagree with anyone's final results but there has to be more going
<BR>on with other trim/alignments than just CG and incidence. All things
being <BR>in balance, i.e. the plane flies straight and level with no
inputs, let's <BR>then add 3oz as a spinner weight. Now the plane drops
and requires uptrim <BR>or increased incidence to return us to hands off
level flight. Now roll the <BR>plane inverted. That up trim or up inc is
now down trim/inc. The weight on <BR>the spinner is still there and the CG
hasn't moved. The plane will not fly <BR>hands off and its pull to the
ground has to be more than before we started.<BR><BR>I understand the
cosmetic interest in eliminating visible elv trim but at <BR>the small
deflections we are talking about, elv trim is simply changing the
<BR>angle of attack of the stab. We could eliminate the visible trim by
<BR>adjusting the stab incidence instead of the wing with no side
effects.<BR><BR>--Lance<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
"Matthew Frederick" <MJFREDERICK@COX.NET><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:29
AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR><BR><BR>> Lance, George is correct that the change in
incidence is so that the <BR>> weight<BR>> shift does not affect
elevator trim. I have to disagree with his thought<BR>> that you'll
have to hold 15% down elevator when inverted. I fly airplanes<BR>> that
Bryan has trimmed all the time, and there is a moment when you
roll<BR>> inverted with his airplanes that you don't even need elevator
at first.<BR>> First time I flew his Shinden I did a slow roll and I
only had to "think"<BR>> about the elevator and rudder inputs. Makes it
a lot easier to concentrate<BR>> on the roll rate.<BR>><BR>>
Matt<BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From: "george w.
kennie" <GEOBET@GIS.NET><BR>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008
8:01 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>><BR>><BR>>> I'm with you Lance. You move that C.G.
forward and increase the incidence<BR>>> to<BR>>> support the
weight shift and you'd better be prepared to hold 15% down<BR>>>
elev<BR>>> when inverted, but then what do I
know?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><BR>>> To: <SHINDEN1@COX.NET>; "NSRCA Mailing
List"<BR>>> <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>> Sent:
Friday, March 07, 2008 8:34 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> Thanks
Bryan. I will definitely move the cg forward a bit. Let me
ask<BR>>>> where you are going with the positive incidence
suggestion. <BR>>>> Misalignment<BR>>>> from wing to
stab sets up a situation where the positive incidence when<BR>>>>
upright is negative incidence when inverted. Of course the elevator
<BR>>>> trim<BR>>>> is<BR>>>> adjusted to
compensate. Does this misalignment alter the roll axis in<BR>>>>
flight?<BR>>>> --Lance<BR>>>><BR>>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>>> From:
<SHINDEN1@COX.NET><BR>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>> Cc: "Lance Van
Nostrand" <PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><BR>>>> Sent: Thursday, March
06, 2008 10:07 PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>>
Lance<BR>>>>> your airplane is tail heavy<BR>>>>>
increase your wing inc. and move the c/g forward and your problem
will<BR>>>>> go<BR>>>>> away.<BR>>>>>
this goes for IMAC airplanes also.<BR>>>>> we are over
thinking the problem.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> design,
verticle c/g has no effect on this problem<BR>>>>>
Bryan<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> ---- Lance Van Nostrand
<PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>>>>> This thread is
timely because I've been experimenting with <BR>>>>>>
differential<BR>>>>>> recently on a new design that seems
to need it. Never needed it <BR>>>>>>
before<BR>>>>>> on a<BR>>>>>> pattern plane
but now I might. My test is to fly very high, point
the<BR>>>>>> nose<BR>>>>>> directly at the
ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be
axial,<BR>>>>>> but<BR>>>>>> remember that
axial is along the vertical CG, which may not be a
line<BR>>>>>> that<BR>>>>>> pierces the wing
LE/TE. You need to do it a few times to be sure
that<BR>>>>>> their<BR>>>>>> is an axis that
everything rotates around and that line is
straight.<BR>>>>>> If<BR>>>>>>
it<BR>>>>>> wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to
determine this is to <BR>>>>>> do<BR>>>>>>
unlimited rolls while flying straight up. If the airplane
<BR>>>>>> consistently<BR>>>>>>
arcs<BR>>>>>> off its vertical line, you have a
problem.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Aerodynamics
suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered
<BR>>>>>> aileron<BR>>>>>> increases the
lift of the airfoil and lift creates drag so this
wing<BR>>>>>> may<BR>>>>>> pull the plane
off axis. the other is that the spiral slipstream of
<BR>>>>>> the<BR>>>>>>
prop<BR>>>>>> is pushing down on the right wing and up on
the left so up/right<BR>>>>>>
aileron<BR>>>>>> is<BR>>>>>> more effective
than up/left and down/left is more effective than<BR>>>>>>
down/right.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> The overall
effect for most pattern planes is minimal and
usually<BR>>>>>> ignorable,<BR>>>>>> but on
IMAC style planes these factors can be significant and
the<BR>>>>>> resulting<BR>>>>>> differential
corrections may need to be adjusted with something
as<BR>>>>>> simple<BR>>>>>>
as<BR>>>>>> a prop change (from 3 blade to 2 for
example).<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> the correction
of course is to start playing with aileron <BR>>>>>>
differential.<BR>>>>>> Given the contributors I've
suggested, its not a given which way you <BR>>>>>>
go<BR>>>>>> with<BR>>>>>> the differential
to correct the problem and the answer might not
even<BR>>>>>> be<BR>>>>>>
symmetrical.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Note that
contributor #1 above will change if you are flying upright
<BR>>>>>> or<BR>>>>>> inverted, so it would
seem that a correction for upright flight would<BR>>>>>>
simply<BR>>>>>> exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor
#2 is the same for any<BR>>>>>>
flight<BR>>>>>> mode but is throttle
dependent.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
--Lance<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>>>>>> From: "Koenig, Tom"
<TOM.KOENIG@ACTEWAGL.COM.AU><BR>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing
List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>>>> Sent:
Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM<BR>>>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
> My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this, the
more<BR>>>>>> > questions<BR>>>>>> >
I<BR>>>>>> > have.........rather than
answers!<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > Maybe
the contra rotating prop set up on a Voodoo X( Nat??) maybe
<BR>>>>>> > the<BR>>>>>> >
answer??<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > I still
'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0
differential<BR>>>>>> > set<BR>>>>>> >
up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should that be
some<BR>>>>>> > sort<BR>>>>>> > of
equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems
<BR>>>>>> > to<BR>>>>>> >
be<BR>>>>>> > Pilot dependant!!!<BR>>>>>>
> I'm starting to think that my rudder control has turned to
the<BR>>>>>> > proverbial trying to micro analyse what's
happening!<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> >
Tom<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> >
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>>>> > From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of<BR>>>>>> > shinden1@cox.net<BR>>>>>>
> Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM<BR>>>>>> > To:
NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>>>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>>>>
><BR>>>>>> > what happens on a
4piont?<BR>>>>>> > Bryan<BR>>>>>> >
---- Del Rykert <DRYKERT2@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>>>>>
>> The general consensus has been that the faster moving molecules
<BR>>>>>> >> over<BR>>>>>> > the
top surface don't require as big as a deflection as the
aileron<BR>>>>>> > that<BR>>>>>> >
deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to
achieve<BR>>>>>> > is<BR>>>>>> > the
plane tracks as purely straight on a string as possible while
<BR>>>>>> > one<BR>>>>>> > rolls both
directions without introducing any yaw.<BR>>>>>>
>><BR>>>>>> >> Del<BR>>>>>>
>><BR>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>>>>> >> From:
<GLMILLER3@SUDDENLINK.NET><BR>>>>>> >> To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>>>>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM<BR>>>>>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>>>>>> >><BR>>>>>>
>><BR>>>>>> >> > Nat and all you other
aerodynamicists,<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > I thought that the rational for
"aileron differential" was that<BR>>>>>> > upward
deflection causes more drag than downward deflection so
to<BR>>>>>> > equalize drag and prevent yaw with aileron
deflection, aileron<BR>>>>>> > differential is needed.
It seems that you guys are now saying that<BR>>>>>> >
ain't so. Please elaborate.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > George<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > ---- Nat Penton
<NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote:<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> >
=============<BR>>>>>> >> > IMO center hinged or
top hinged is OK. With top hinge, to achieve<BR>>>>>> >
equal vertical travel of the trailing edge requires different
<BR>>>>>> > angular<BR>>>>>> > travel,
up vs down. The objective is zero aerodynamic
differential.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Ron I don't think a fairing
would prevent separation but, how are<BR>>>>>> > you
able to fair the gap using the top hinge ? Nat<BR>>>>>>
>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>>>>>>
>> > From: ronlock@comcast.net<BR>>>>>> >>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>>>> >> > Sent:
Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM<BR>>>>>> >> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > And while your at it,
I'd appreciate some discussion of the<BR>>>>>> >>
> impact<BR>>>>>> > of the top hinge system as seen
on Viavat, and Prestige birds -<BR>>>>>> >
(top<BR>>>>>> > hinged, with fairing that eliminates the
gap at deflection)<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Thanks, Ron
Lockhart<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > -------------- Original message --------------
<BR>>>>>> >> > From:
vicenterc@comcast.net<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Nat,<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Could you explain why
the differential should be different for<BR>>>>>> >
non-center hinged? I understand that the mechanical configuration
<BR>>>>>> > of<BR>>>>>> > non-center
hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in
<BR>>>>>> > both<BR>>>>>> >
directions. However, the travel up and down should be close
to<BR>>>>>> > equal.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Thanks,<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> >
--<BR>>>>>> >> > Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > -------------- Original message --------------
<BR>>>>>> >> > From: "Nat Penton"
<NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET><BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Tom<BR>>>>>>
>> > It's just something that is peculiar to the
Southern<BR>>>>>> > Hemisphere.<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Changing wing
incidence will not help. Unless things are<BR>>>>>>
>> > really<BR>>>>>> > screwed up <G>, at our
roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to<BR>>>>>> >
cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking (
same<BR>>>>>> > up/down if center hinged
).<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
> I find the best check is the fast half-roll in the
vertical<BR>>>>>> >> > up.<BR>>>>>>
> Regards Nat<BR>>>>>> >> > ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>>>>>> >> > From: Koenig,
Tom<BR>>>>>> >> > To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>>>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008
7:24 PM<BR>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Hi Troy!<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Thanks for the info. I thought
you would be toiling away <BR>>>>>> >> >
on<BR>>>>>> > the next developmental stage of these
engines!!<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get flying again.
I<BR>>>>>> >> > am<BR>>>>>> >
looking forward to running this little beast. I am still a
little<BR>>>>>> > concerned in keeping it quiet
though.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two
bladers<BR>>>>>> > but I just cant see how I'll shut the
thing up with these paint<BR>>>>>> >
stirrers??<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Also-one more question to any of you out there in
pattern<BR>>>>>> > land.<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > I have struggled with
aileron differential for years. I am<BR>>>>>> > just not
happy with the rolls. I have tried various design
fixes-but<BR>>>>>> > about the only one that seems to
work is to get the wing back to 0-0<BR>>>>>> >
(<BR>>>>>> > which can be achieved by a few ways,
design, mix or thumbs)<BR>>>>>> >
Differential<BR>>>>>> > itself does not seem to work if
the wing is POA ( well...it works <BR>>>>>> >
for<BR>>>>>> > half the roll !)<BR>>>>>>
>> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run
parallel<BR>>>>>> > ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems
to fix it. I like the feel of<BR>>>>>> > equal% chord
ailerons however.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > I am frustrated with it-I like
my planes to roll as if <BR>>>>>> >> >
they<BR>>>>>> > had a string up its ...........well you
know!<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator
work<BR>>>>>> >> > fixes it ( hence my 0-0
comment)<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Tom<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>>>>
>> > ----<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>>
>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>>
>> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>>
>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> >
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>> > ----------<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>>
>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>>
>> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>>
>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>>
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>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>>
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