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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chris, the datum line you use on the fuse should be
a line that when running parallel to the ground will have your plane look the
way you want it to when you're flying straight and level. I know on Bryan's
designs he tries to make the canopy seam define this line so that visualizing it
is easier. That way when he sets up to measure, all he has to to is pull the
canopy and lay a level on the fuse. That's one thing that always baffled me
about people sharing setups (hmm, I fly .5 pos on the wing, and .25 pos on the
stab, and .5 neg and right thrust). All that means nothing if you're not using
the same reference point, plus you might want your aircraft to present
differently in the air, so you're screwed there too. Good luck with the
trimming, I know it can be a pain, but it's well worth the work once you have an
airplane that you don't have to fight throughout the sequence.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 09, 2008 1:56
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Mike.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I appreciate your well thought out response. </DIV>
<DIV>I guess, when I say I like a more tail heavy plane, I say that without
really knowing what others fly. I just know I see alot of nose's dipping when
going to inverted. And I use just a touch of down.. Knife's require a fair
amount of rudder.. So maybe I'm not really any more tailheavy than the next
guy.. I've always been told I roll good. Plus, I'm running the recommended cg
from Jerry Budd, who has 3 Abbra's.. And he says his is a little nose heavy at
5/8" in front of the wing tube on his first setup. I believe he is now at 1/4"
in front of the tube. Which is about where I am. I've tried 5/8" and had to
add a butt load of positive incidence to get the ele back to center.. Now
though, Bryan has me thinking outside my box. In my new thinking, that if I do
have a little more up thrust, I may be able to keep my wing incidence at .5
instead of the+1 that its been ending up to get rid of the ele trim. Which may
in turn when I go inverted make me require a little more down ele.. If I'm
thinking correctly.. </DIV>
<DIV>So let me ask this as Bryan kinda brought it up, if anyone cares to
explain, what is the correct way to find the datum line on a fuse then? To
determine how much thrust you actually have. On my Abbra, it seems that
the stab is in line with the motor centerline. Shot with a laser the stab is
perfectly straight with the motor centerline. The wing is lower. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>BTW, I shimmed my motor up one washer.. Going to try the more up thrust
as Bryan was right when he said some people try to compensate by adding more
down thrust.. I did.. I had a washer removed from it.. Adding extra.. I will
take my shims to the field and maybe go more.. I can't wait to go now.. But,
it'll be mid week I'm guessing. Gotta work tomorrow through Tuesday..
Sometimes I like being a contractor.. lol.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Mike, hope I can keep it for now and get it flying good.. Would
love to make my first nats and meet you guys!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris<BR><BR><B><I>Mike Hester <kerlock@comcast.net></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Chris,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Everything effects everything else. If there's
a "secret", that's it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You're starting in the right place with ..5-0.
But where you end up might not be in the same place.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now you just nailed it on one thing you said:
tail heavy. Tail heavy pattern planes don't do all that well. oh you can get
used to it, but you will end up with a lot of mixes and wierd
throws.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keep in mind that this is "generally speaking",
every plane is different.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I usually start the Black Magics around ..25
and trim in flight. Guess where I usually end up? Just about .5 on the wing.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you're having to dig a lot of down elevator
passing through inverted it doesn't necessarily mean that the .5 incidence
is the culprit. you should have to add some down inverted, the question is
how much. You can play with throws and expos to make it not a big deal. if
it's REALLY digging inverted, check closer because you're missing something.
As in flat out diving, not dipping.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But this is why I try not to get into heated
aerodynamic debates online. Unless we're talking about the exact same
airframe/engine/prop...heck even the landing gear, what works on one may not
necessarily work for another. Take the set up for a Focus and directly apply
it to an Itnegral, and let me know how it turns out =)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bryan's advice is usually dead on. And so is
Matt's. But as you can see thier theory departs and when it does, it's
pronounced. They both have well trimmed and great flying planes. I have
tried the zero or minimal thrust thing on my plane and it just well, didn't
work out for me. Down thrust, yeah about .5 down. But right thrust....I
never figured that one out without a lot of creative mixing. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And then Bryan makes one heck of a good
point....why do the 22" props not require 10 degrees of right thrust? Set up
on the ones I build seem to be exactly the same as an 18" prop.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So let's get to the real answers....it's
voodoo. Black magic. Witchcraft. Theory gets you in the ball park. Then you
have to put it in the air. Don't be afraid to try something different. Get
aggressive. if you want to learn, you have to ask questions and be willing
to try anything. Don't judge it in one flight though, always give a new
method or set up a little time. Because "correct" might feel very strange if
you're not used to it. In the end what you're looking for is whatever makes
Chris' Abbra draw consistently straight lines, axial rolls, clean snaps and
true (or easily correctable) tracking in knife egde. The answer is out
there. But the seacrh for it could be pretty exhaustive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have one VF3 that doesn't behave like all of
the rest, and I have no idea why. I know that something is eluding me. And I
know if I am dilligent, I'll find it. Incidence? Balance? A twist in the
tips? Blowback on the surfaces? I don't know, but you can bet I will find
out. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now with all of that said, I know that some
designs are a lot better and more forgiving than others. The Abbra, I
couldn't tell you. I have only run across 2 planes that I considered
"untrimmable", and neither are current designs. Some planes it takes a lot
more mix and some things you just have to live with. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bryan and I have had one particular discussion
lately and I have come around to his way of thinking. Most people simply run
thier planes too tail heavy without enough positive incidence in the wing.
just keep in mind that this is to achieve what we are looking for, and
someone else can be totally different. But I warn you now, if you try and
set up a VF3 or a Shinden like a Focus, get a collar ready for that dog. You
won't like it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>An Abbra may just have a wicked pull to the
canopy you can't get rid of in a down line....or, you have to drop the
incidence and live with a lot of pitch mix? I'm guessing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I could type a book on this and still not say a
lot =)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-Mike</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 8:10
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Lance.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As I said, I have alot to learn.. I usually start with .5-0.. Then
adjust the cg and wing.. But on my Abbra, it's really messing with my
downlines, my knifes, and my rudder sensitivity. I'm going to start to
make a list though each time I go flying to let me know what I like and
don't like with my changes.. Probably doesn't help that I like to be a
little more tailheavy.. Nearly hands off inverted.. </DIV>
<DIV>This conversation has made me think alot about what affects what in
different aspects of flight. And also that what I thought, may not be so..
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris<BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><FONT face=Tahoma
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<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face="comic sans ms" color=#0000bf size=3>Chris
</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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