<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16608" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chris,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The "standard" you speak of doesn't exist.
There are probably many ways to have a plane in trim but you need to start down
a path that has a theoretical ideal and try to achieve it. Start with 0-0,
.5-0, .5-.5 and know what an ideal plane with these setups is supposed to do in
up, down, KE, upright, level flight. this also helps you select
thrustline, CG starting points. Once you have a target and a contxt to
interpret your fight test results then you can make proper trim
corrections. This is a game of tradeoffs and tuning, but it's not
random.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I've observed really good pilots in my area put
down another really good pilot's trim theories, but as I said before, I would
never do that. If good results are achieved then we have to respect that
there is a whole trimming philosophy known to that pilot on how to trim a plane
and there are at least 10 philosophies that all get the right result. I
also should point out that I totally agree with Bryan's comment that everyone
has their own threshold of what is "good enough". This is NOT a slam
against a pilot that may not be able to feel a certain problem because he's not
good enough, as some might interpret. The truth is, we all have certain
trim problems that we seem to naturally overcome or are not sensitive too and
others that drive us crazy. your trimming philosophy needs to address the
most problematic trim issues for your personal style, sensitivity and
ability.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 2:59
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I completely agree with this Lance. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is what baffles me with every setup.. Wondering if I have it as good
as I can. Or if maybe I should change my cg, and my incidences.. </DIV>
<DIV>So in setup, should I just go with the standard 1/2 degree positive
in the wing, then adjust cg till the ele is centered? No, that doesn't give me
the best cg for my style of flying. Or do I adjust the wing incidence till
it's centered? No, cuz then I will still have undesirable results in lines and
knife.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is something I have tried to say in my district. It's always pushed
to practice, practice, practice. But I feel alot of us are "setup" challenged.
I know I am.. We are starting to have one day practice contests here in D7
this year.. I think there are 3.. All the practice in the world doesn't make a
person fly much better if he or she is fighting their setup.. It seems those
that really know how to setup a plane don't want to tell their
secrets.. Can't blame them. Maybe that's why they are world champions.. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris<BR><BR><B><I>Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@tx.rr.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Matt,<BR>I
can't disagree with anyone's final results but there has to be more going
<BR>on with other trim/alignments than just CG and incidence. All things
being <BR>in balance, i.e. the plane flies straight and level with no
inputs, let's <BR>then add 3oz as a spinner weight. Now the plane drops and
requires uptrim <BR>or increased incidence to return us to hands off level
flight. Now roll the <BR>plane inverted. That up trim or up inc is now down
trim/inc. The weight on <BR>the spinner is still there and the CG hasn't
moved. The plane will not fly <BR>hands off and its pull to the ground has
to be more than before we started.<BR><BR>I understand the cosmetic interest
in eliminating visible elv trim but at <BR>the small deflections we are
talking about, elv trim is simply changing the <BR>angle of attack of the
stab. We could eliminate the visible trim by <BR>adjusting the stab
incidence instead of the wing with no side
effects.<BR><BR>--Lance<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
"Matthew Frederick" <MJFREDERICK@COX.NET><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:29
AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR><BR><BR>> Lance, George is correct that the change in incidence
is so that the <BR>> weight<BR>> shift does not affect elevator trim.
I have to disagree with his thought<BR>> that you'll have to hold 15%
down elevator when inverted. I fly airplanes<BR>> that Bryan has trimmed
all the time, and there is a moment when you roll<BR>> inverted with his
airplanes that you don't even need elevator at first.<BR>> First time I
flew his Shinden I did a slow roll and I only had to "think"<BR>> about
the elevator and rudder inputs. Makes it a lot easier to concentrate<BR>>
on the roll rate.<BR>><BR>> Matt<BR>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> From: "george w. kennie" <GEOBET@GIS.NET><BR>> To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> Sent: Friday, March
07, 2008 8:01 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>><BR>><BR>>> I'm with you Lance. You move that C.G.
forward and increase the incidence<BR>>> to<BR>>> support the
weight shift and you'd better be prepared to hold 15% down<BR>>>
elev<BR>>> when inverted, but then what do I
know?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><BR>>> To: <SHINDEN1@COX.NET>; "NSRCA Mailing
List"<BR>>> <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>> Sent:
Friday, March 07, 2008 8:34 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> Thanks
Bryan. I will definitely move the cg forward a bit. Let me
ask<BR>>>> where you are going with the positive incidence
suggestion. <BR>>>> Misalignment<BR>>>> from wing to stab
sets up a situation where the positive incidence when<BR>>>>
upright is negative incidence when inverted. Of course the elevator
<BR>>>> trim<BR>>>> is<BR>>>> adjusted to
compensate. Does this misalignment alter the roll axis in<BR>>>>
flight?<BR>>>> --Lance<BR>>>><BR>>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>>> From:
<SHINDEN1@COX.NET><BR>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>> Cc: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><BR>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 10:07
PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>>
Lance<BR>>>>> your airplane is tail heavy<BR>>>>>
increase your wing inc. and move the c/g forward and your problem
will<BR>>>>> go<BR>>>>> away.<BR>>>>>
this goes for IMAC airplanes also.<BR>>>>> we are over thinking
the problem.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> design, verticle c/g
has no effect on this problem<BR>>>>>
Bryan<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> ---- Lance Van Nostrand
<PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>>>>> This thread is timely
because I've been experimenting with <BR>>>>>>
differential<BR>>>>>> recently on a new design that seems to
need it. Never needed it <BR>>>>>>
before<BR>>>>>> on a<BR>>>>>> pattern plane
but now I might. My test is to fly very high, point
the<BR>>>>>> nose<BR>>>>>> directly at the
ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be axial,<BR>>>>>>
but<BR>>>>>> remember that axial is along the vertical CG,
which may not be a line<BR>>>>>> that<BR>>>>>>
pierces the wing LE/TE. You need to do it a few times to be sure
that<BR>>>>>> their<BR>>>>>> is an axis that
everything rotates around and that line is straight.<BR>>>>>>
If<BR>>>>>> it<BR>>>>>> wobbles, then we have
an issue. Another way to determine this is to <BR>>>>>>
do<BR>>>>>> unlimited rolls while flying straight up. If the
airplane <BR>>>>>> consistently<BR>>>>>>
arcs<BR>>>>>> off its vertical line, you have a
problem.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Aerodynamics
suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered <BR>>>>>>
aileron<BR>>>>>> increases the lift of the airfoil and lift
creates drag so this wing<BR>>>>>>
may<BR>>>>>> pull the plane off axis. the other is that the
spiral slipstream of <BR>>>>>> the<BR>>>>>>
prop<BR>>>>>> is pushing down on the right wing and up on the
left so up/right<BR>>>>>> aileron<BR>>>>>>
is<BR>>>>>> more effective than up/left and down/left is more
effective than<BR>>>>>>
down/right.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> The overall
effect for most pattern planes is minimal and
usually<BR>>>>>> ignorable,<BR>>>>>> but on
IMAC style planes these factors can be significant and
the<BR>>>>>> resulting<BR>>>>>> differential
corrections may need to be adjusted with something
as<BR>>>>>> simple<BR>>>>>>
as<BR>>>>>> a prop change (from 3 blade to 2 for
example).<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> the correction of
course is to start playing with aileron <BR>>>>>>
differential.<BR>>>>>> Given the contributors I've suggested,
its not a given which way you <BR>>>>>>
go<BR>>>>>> with<BR>>>>>> the differential to
correct the problem and the answer might not even<BR>>>>>>
be<BR>>>>>>
symmetrical.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Note that
contributor #1 above will change if you are flying upright
<BR>>>>>> or<BR>>>>>> inverted, so it would
seem that a correction for upright flight would<BR>>>>>>
simply<BR>>>>>> exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor
#2 is the same for any<BR>>>>>>
flight<BR>>>>>> mode but is throttle
dependent.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
--Lance<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>>>>>> From: "Koenig, Tom"
<TOM.KOENIG@ACTEWAGL.COM.AU><BR>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing
List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>>>> Sent:
Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM<BR>>>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
> My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this, the
more<BR>>>>>> > questions<BR>>>>>> >
I<BR>>>>>> > have.........rather than
answers!<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > Maybe the
contra rotating prop set up on a Voodoo X( Nat??) maybe
<BR>>>>>> > the<BR>>>>>> >
answer??<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > I still
'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0
differential<BR>>>>>> > set<BR>>>>>> >
up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should that be
some<BR>>>>>> > sort<BR>>>>>> > of
equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems
<BR>>>>>> > to<BR>>>>>> >
be<BR>>>>>> > Pilot dependant!!!<BR>>>>>>
> I'm starting to think that my rudder control has turned to
the<BR>>>>>> > proverbial trying to micro analyse what's
happening!<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> >
Tom<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > -----Original
Message-----<BR>>>>>> > From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of<BR>>>>>> > shinden1@cox.net<BR>>>>>>
> Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM<BR>>>>>> > To:
NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>>>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>>>>
><BR>>>>>> > what happens on a
4piont?<BR>>>>>> > Bryan<BR>>>>>> > ----
Del Rykert <DRYKERT2@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>>>>>
>> The general consensus has been that the faster moving molecules
<BR>>>>>> >> over<BR>>>>>> > the top
surface don't require as big as a deflection as the
aileron<BR>>>>>> > that<BR>>>>>> >
deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to
achieve<BR>>>>>> > is<BR>>>>>> > the
plane tracks as purely straight on a string as possible while
<BR>>>>>> > one<BR>>>>>> > rolls both
directions without introducing any yaw.<BR>>>>>>
>><BR>>>>>> >> Del<BR>>>>>>
>><BR>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>>>>> >> From:
<GLMILLER3@SUDDENLINK.NET><BR>>>>>> >> To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>>>>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM<BR>>>>>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>>>>>> >><BR>>>>>>
>><BR>>>>>> >> > Nat and all you other
aerodynamicists,<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > I thought that the rational for
"aileron differential" was that<BR>>>>>> > upward
deflection causes more drag than downward deflection so
to<BR>>>>>> > equalize drag and prevent yaw with aileron
deflection, aileron<BR>>>>>> > differential is needed. It
seems that you guys are now saying that<BR>>>>>> > ain't
so. Please elaborate.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > George<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > ---- Nat Penton
<NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote:<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> >
=============<BR>>>>>> >> > IMO center hinged or top
hinged is OK. With top hinge, to achieve<BR>>>>>> > equal
vertical travel of the trailing edge requires different
<BR>>>>>> > angular<BR>>>>>> > travel,
up vs down. The objective is zero aerodynamic
differential.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent separation but, how
are<BR>>>>>> > you able to fair the gap using the top
hinge ? Nat<BR>>>>>> >> > ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>>>>> >> > From:
ronlock@comcast.net<BR>>>>>> >> > To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>>>>> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008
7:20 AM<BR>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > And while your at it, I'd appreciate some discussion of
the<BR>>>>>> >> > impact<BR>>>>>>
> of the top hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds
-<BR>>>>>> > (top<BR>>>>>> > hinged,
with fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection)<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Thanks, Ron
Lockhart<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > -------------- Original message --------------
<BR>>>>>> >> > From:
vicenterc@comcast.net<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Nat,<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Could you explain why
the differential should be different for<BR>>>>>> >
non-center hinged? I understand that the mechanical configuration
<BR>>>>>> > of<BR>>>>>> > non-center
hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in
<BR>>>>>> > both<BR>>>>>> > directions.
However, the travel up and down should be close to<BR>>>>>>
> equal.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Thanks,<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > --<BR>>>>>>
>> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > -------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>>>>>> >> > From: "Nat Penton"
<NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET><BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Tom<BR>>>>>>
>> > It's just something that is peculiar to the
Southern<BR>>>>>> > Hemisphere.<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Changing wing incidence
will not help. Unless things are<BR>>>>>> >> >
really<BR>>>>>> > screwed up <G>, at our roll rates,
centrifugal forces are too low to<BR>>>>>> > cause a
problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking (
same<BR>>>>>> > up/down if center hinged
).<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
> I find the best check is the fast half-roll in the
vertical<BR>>>>>> >> > up.<BR>>>>>>
> Regards Nat<BR>>>>>> >> > ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>>>>>> >> > From: Koenig,
Tom<BR>>>>>> >> > To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>>>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008
7:24 PM<BR>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
> Hi Troy!<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Thanks for the info. I thought you would be toiling away
<BR>>>>>> >> > on<BR>>>>>> > the
next developmental stage of these engines!!<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Hopefully soon, I can find the
time to get flying again. I<BR>>>>>> >> >
am<BR>>>>>> > looking forward to running this little
beast. I am still a little<BR>>>>>> > concerned in keeping
it quiet though.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > Four blade props? I have some of
the 18.1 x 12 two bladers<BR>>>>>> > but I just cant see
how I'll shut the thing up with these paint<BR>>>>>> >
stirrers??<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Also-one more question to any of you out there in
pattern<BR>>>>>> > land.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > I have struggled with aileron
differential for years. I am<BR>>>>>> > just not happy
with the rolls. I have tried various design
fixes-but<BR>>>>>> > about the only one that seems to work
is to get the wing back to 0-0<BR>>>>>> >
(<BR>>>>>> > which can be achieved by a few ways, design,
mix or thumbs)<BR>>>>>> >
Differential<BR>>>>>> > itself does not seem to work if
the wing is POA ( well...it works <BR>>>>>> >
for<BR>>>>>> > half the roll !)<BR>>>>>>
>> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run
parallel<BR>>>>>> > ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems
to fix it. I like the feel of<BR>>>>>> > equal% chord
ailerons however.<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> > I am frustrated with it-I like my
planes to roll as if <BR>>>>>> >> >
they<BR>>>>>> > had a string up its ............well you
know!<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
> OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator
work<BR>>>>>> >> > fixes it ( hence my 0-0
comment)<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> > Tom<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>>>>
>> > ----<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
> _______________________________________________<BR>>>>>>
>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >>
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>>
>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>>>>
>> > ----------<BR>>>>>> >>
><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
> _______________________________________________<BR>>>>>>
>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >>
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>>
>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>>
>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >>
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>>
>> ><BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________<BR>>>>>>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
-- <BR>>> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private
users.<BR>>> It has removed 2725 spam emails to date.<BR>>>
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.<BR>>> Get the
free SPAMfighter here:
http://www.spamfighter.com/len<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<P>
<HR SIZE=1>
Looking for last minute shopping deals? <A
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping">Find
them fast with Yahoo! Search.</A>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>