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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you read what Nat posted previously in the
trimming thread, he acknowledges the fact that there is some differential, but
with symmetrical airfoils and low AOAs the difference is pretty much
negligible.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wgalligan@att.net href="mailto:wgalligan@att.net">Wayne Galligan</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:21
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
DIFFERENTIAL.... subject</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good observation Matt. On a modern
pattern plane. Any differential that may be noticeable in these planes
may be caused be other factors possibly. NAT.... help us out
here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[SPAM]Re: YS Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Finally someone said it...</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lightfoot@sc.rr.com href="mailto:lightfoot@sc.rr.com">Jay
Marshall</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 07, 2008 8:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[SPAM]Re: YS Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wouldn’t that
apply more to a “lifting” wing rather than the symmetrical wings we use in
pattern?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Jay
</SPAN></FONT></I></B><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Marshall</SPAN></FONT></I></B><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
[mailto:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Robert
Harden<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday,
March 07, 2008 9:36 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[SPAM]Re: YS Questions+more - Rolls</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lance, I am
taking a private pilots ground school class, and the aerodynamics portion
if it says that the lower aileron produces lift, and a byproduct of lift
is drag. The higher aileron dumps lift and therefore has less
drag. This condition creates yaw. So, what we are doing in
pattern, is to add differential between the ailerons by raising the
ailerons in the upward direction to increase it's drag to match the lower
ailerons drag so we don't get or minimize the yaw. Hope that helps to
understand what is going on.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:59 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
[SPAM]Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Lance,
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just a
thought though, if going straight up, up straight down, aren't the up
and down ailerons both inducing equal drag, no lift? I've often
wondered if our straight up test is actually a perfect test for this. It
is for our up and down lines, but what about our 45's or horizontals
where we do indeed have lift on the low aileron and drag on the other?
This would create a different condition I'm guessing.. Probably small,
but still a little different because as I mention, both create drag on
the up or downline.. Still, it's the best test we have I guess..
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Chris
<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Lance
Van Nostrand <patterndude@tx.rr.com></SPAN></I></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This
thread is timely because I've been experimenting with differential
<BR>recently on a new design that seems to need it. Never needed it
before on a <BR>pattern plane but now I might. My test is to fly very
high, point the nose <BR>directly at the ground and roll pure aileron.
Plane should be axial, but <BR>remember that axial is along the
vertical CG, which may not be a line that <BR>pierces the wing LE/TE.
You need to do it a few times to be sure that their <BR>is an axis
that everything rotates around and that line is straight. If it
<BR>wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to determine this is
to do <BR>unlimited rolls while flying straight up. If the airplane
consistently arcs <BR>off its vertical line, you have a
problem.<BR><BR>Aerodynamics suggests two contributors. One is that
the lowered aileron <BR>increases the lift of the airfoil and lift
creates drag so this wing may <BR>pull the plane off axis. the other
is that the spiral slipstream of the prop <BR>is pushing down on the
right wing and up on the left so up/right aileron is <BR>more
effective than up/left and down/left is more effective than
down/right.<BR><BR>The overall effect for most pattern planes is
minimal and usually ignorable, <BR>but on IMAC style planes these
factors can be significant and the resulting <BR>differential
corrections may need to be adjusted with something as simple as <BR>a
prop change (from 3 blade to 2 for example).<BR><BR>the correction of
course is to start playing with aileron differential. <BR>Given the
contributors I've suggested, its not a given which way you go with
<BR>the differential to correct the problem and the answer might not
even be <BR>symmetrical.<BR><BR>Note that contributor #1 above will
change if you are flying upright or <BR>inverted, so it would seem
that a correction for upright flight would simply <BR>exacerbate
inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for any flight
<BR>mode but is throttle dependent.<BR><BR>--Lance<BR><BR>-----
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Koenig, Tom"
<BR><TOM.KOENIG@ACTEWAGL.COM.AU>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008
4:45 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR><BR><BR>> My head is spinning!!! The more I think about
this, the more questions I<BR>> have.........rather than
answers!<BR>><BR>> Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a
Voodoo X( Nat??) maybe the<BR>> answer??<BR>><BR>> I still
'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0 differential
set<BR>> up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should that
be some sort<BR>> of equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in
my case, it seems to be<BR>> Pilot dependant!!!<BR>> I'm
starting to think that my rudder control has turned to the<BR>>
proverbial trying to micro analyse what's happening!<BR>><BR>>
Tom<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of<BR>>
shinden1@cox.net<BR>> Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM<BR>>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<BR>><BR>> what happens on a
4piont?<BR>> Bryan<BR>> ---- Del Rykert
<DRYKERT2@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>> The general consensus
has been that the faster moving molecules over<BR>> the top surface
don't require as big as a deflection as the aileron that<BR>>
deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to achieve
is<BR>> the plane tracks as purely straight on a string as possible
while one<BR>> rolls both directions without introducing any
yaw.<BR>>><BR>>> Del<BR>>><BR>>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>>> From:
<BR><GLMILLER3@SUDDENLINK.NET>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>>> Sent: Thursday, March
06, 2008 2:49 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> > Nat
and all you other aerodynamicists,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > I
thought that the rational for "aileron differential" was that<BR>>
upward deflection causes more drag than downward deflection so
to<BR>> equalize drag and prevent yaw with aileron deflection,
aileron<BR>> differential is needed. It seems that you guys are now
saying that<BR>> ain't so. Please elaborate.<BR>>>
><BR>>> > George<BR>>> ><BR>>> > ----
Nat Penton <NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote:<BR>>>
><BR>>> > =============<BR>>> > IMO center hinged
or top hinged is OK. With top hinge, to achieve<BR>> equal vertical
travel of the trailing edge requires different angular<BR>> travel,
up vs down. The objective is zero aerodynamic
differential.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Ron I don't think a
fairing would prevent separation but, how are<BR>> you able to fair
the gap using the top hinge ? Nat<BR>>> > ----- Original
Message -----<BR>>> > From: ronlock@comcast.net<BR>>>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 06,
2008 7:20 AM<BR>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>>
> And while your at it, I'd appreciate some discussion of the
impact<BR>> of the top hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige
birds - (top<BR>> hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at
deflection)<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks, Ron
Lockhart<BR>>> ><BR>>> > -------------- Original
message -------------- <BR>>> > From:
vicenterc@comcast.net<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Nat,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Could you explain why the
differential should be different for<BR>> non-center hinged? I
understand that the mechanical configuration of<BR>> non-center
hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in both<BR>>
directions. However, the travel up and down should be close to
equal.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks,<BR>>>
><BR>>> > --<BR>>> > Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>>> ><BR>>> > -------------- Original
message -------------- <BR>>> > From: "Nat Penton"
<BR><NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>>> ><BR>>> >
Tom<BR>>> > It's just something that is peculiar to the
Southern<BR>> Hemisphere.<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Changing wing incidence will not help. Unless things are
really<BR>> screwed up <G>, at our roll rates, centrifugal forces
are too low to<BR>> cause a problem. You want zero differential,
aero speaking ( same<BR>> up/down if center hinged ).<BR>>>
><BR>>> > I find the best check is the fast half-roll in
the vertical up.<BR>> Regards Nat<BR>>> > ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>>> > From: Koenig, Tom<BR>>> > To:
NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008
7:24 PM<BR>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> > Hi
Troy!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks for the info. I thought
you would be toiling away on<BR>> the next developmental stage of
these engines!!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Hopefully soon, I
can find the time to get flying again. I am<BR>> looking forward to
running this little beast. I am still a little<BR>> concerned in
keeping it quiet though.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Four blade
props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers<BR>> but I just
cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint<BR>>
stirrers??<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Also-one more question to
any of you out there in pattern<BR>> land.<BR>>>
><BR>>> > I have struggled with aileron differential for
years. I am<BR>> just not happy with the rolls. I have tried
various design fixes-but<BR>> about the only one that seems to work
is to get the wing back to 0-0 (<BR>> which can be achieved by a
few ways, design, mix or thumbs) Differential<BR>> itself does not
seem to work if the wing is POA ( well...it works for<BR>> half the
roll !)<BR>>> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run
parallel<BR>> ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I
like the feel of<BR>> equal% chord ailerons however.<BR>>>
><BR>>> > I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll
as if they<BR>> had a string up its ...........well you
know!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to
know??? Very good elevator work<BR>>> > fixes it ( hence my
0-0 comment)<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Tom<BR>>>
><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
> ----<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
> ----------<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
> _______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
><BR>><BR>>
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