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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good observation Matt. On a modern
pattern plane. Any differential that may be noticeable in these planes may
be caused be other factors possibly. NAT.... help us out
here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [SPAM]Re:
YS Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Finally someone said it...</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lightfoot@sc.rr.com href="mailto:lightfoot@sc.rr.com">Jay
Marshall</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 07, 2008 8:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[SPAM]Re: YS Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wouldn’t that apply
more to a “lifting” wing rather than the symmetrical wings we use in
pattern?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Jay
</SPAN></FONT></I></B><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Marshall</SPAN></FONT></I></B><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
[mailto:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Robert
Harden<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, March
07, 2008 9:36 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] [SPAM]Re: YS Questions+more - Rolls</SPAN></FONT></P>
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size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lance, I am taking a
private pilots ground school class, and the aerodynamics portion if it says
that the lower aileron produces lift, and a byproduct of lift is drag.
The higher aileron dumps lift and therefore has less drag. This
condition creates yaw. So, what we are doing in pattern, is to add
differential between the ailerons by raising the ailerons in the upward
direction to increase it's drag to match the lower ailerons drag so we don't
get or minimize the yaw. Hope that helps to understand what is going
on.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
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size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
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<DIV style="font-color: black">
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style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:59 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
[SPAM]Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Lance, </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just a thought though, if going
straight up, up straight down, aren't the up and down ailerons both
inducing equal drag, no lift? I've often wondered if our straight up test
is actually a perfect test for this. It is for our up and down lines, but
what about our 45's or horizontals where we do indeed have lift on the low
aileron and drag on the other? This would create a different condition I'm
guessing.. Probably small, but still a little different because as I
mention, both create drag on the up or downline.. Still, it's the best
test we have I guess.. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Chris <BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@tx.rr.com></SPAN></I></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This thread
is timely because I've been experimenting with differential <BR>recently
on a new design that seems to need it. Never needed it before on a
<BR>pattern plane but now I might. My test is to fly very high, point
the nose <BR>directly at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should
be axial, but <BR>remember that axial is along the vertical CG, which
may not be a line that <BR>pierces the wing LE/TE. You need to do it a
few times to be sure that their <BR>is an axis that everything rotates
around and that line is straight. If it <BR>wobbles, then we have an
issue. Another way to determine this is to do <BR>unlimited rolls while
flying straight up. If the airplane consistently arcs <BR>off its
vertical line, you have a problem.<BR><BR>Aerodynamics suggests two
contributors. One is that the lowered aileron <BR>increases the lift of
the airfoil and lift creates drag so this wing may <BR>pull the plane
off axis. the other is that the spiral slipstream of the prop <BR>is
pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so up/right aileron is
<BR>more effective than up/left and down/left is more effective than
down/right.<BR><BR>The overall effect for most pattern planes is minimal
and usually ignorable, <BR>but on IMAC style planes these factors can be
significant and the resulting <BR>differential corrections may need to
be adjusted with something as simple as <BR>a prop change (from 3 blade
to 2 for example).<BR><BR>the correction of course is to start playing
with aileron differential. <BR>Given the contributors I've suggested,
its not a given which way you go with <BR>the differential to correct
the problem and the answer might not even be
<BR>symmetrical.<BR><BR>Note that contributor #1 above will change if
you are flying upright or <BR>inverted, so it would seem that a
correction for upright flight would simply <BR>exacerbate inverted
flight, but contributor #2 is the same for any flight <BR>mode but is
throttle dependent.<BR><BR>--Lance<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR>From: "Koenig, Tom" <BR><TOM.KOENIG@ACTEWAGL.COM.AU>To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>Sent: Thursday,
March 06, 2008 4:45 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<BR><BR><BR>> My head is spinning!!! The more I
think about this, the more questions I<BR>> have.........rather than
answers!<BR>><BR>> Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a
Voodoo X( Nat??) maybe the<BR>> answer??<BR>><BR>> I still
'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0 differential set<BR>>
up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should that be some
sort<BR>> of equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case,
it seems to be<BR>> Pilot dependant!!!<BR>> I'm starting to think
that my rudder control has turned to the<BR>> proverbial trying to
micro analyse what's happening!<BR>><BR>> Tom<BR>><BR>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of<BR>>
shinden1@cox.net<BR>> Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM<BR>> To:
NSRCA Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<BR>><BR>> what happens on a 4piont?<BR>>
Bryan<BR>> ---- Del Rykert
<DRYKERT2@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>> The general consensus has
been that the faster moving molecules over<BR>> the top surface don't
require as big as a deflection as the aileron that<BR>> deflects
towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to achieve is<BR>>
the plane tracks as purely straight on a string as possible while
one<BR>> rolls both directions without introducing any
yaw.<BR>>><BR>>> Del<BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original
Message -----<BR>>> From: <BR><GLMILLER3@SUDDENLINK.NET>>>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>>>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> > Nat and all you other
aerodynamicists,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > I thought that the
rational for "aileron differential" was that<BR>> upward deflection
causes more drag than downward deflection so to<BR>> equalize drag
and prevent yaw with aileron deflection, aileron<BR>> differential is
needed. It seems that you guys are now saying that<BR>> ain't so.
Please elaborate.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > George<BR>>>
><BR>>> > ---- Nat Penton
<NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote:<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
=============<BR>>> > IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK.
With top hinge, to achieve<BR>> equal vertical travel of the trailing
edge requires different angular<BR>> travel, up vs down. The
objective is zero aerodynamic differential.<BR>>> ><BR>>>
> Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent separation but, how
are<BR>> you able to fair the gap using the top hinge ?
Nat<BR>>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>>> > From:
ronlock@comcast.net<BR>>> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM<BR>>> > Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>
><BR>>> ><BR>>> > And while your at it, I'd
appreciate some discussion of the impact<BR>> of the top hinge system
as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds - (top<BR>> hinged, with
fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection)<BR>>>
><BR>>> > Thanks, Ron Lockhart<BR>>> ><BR>>>
> -------------- Original message -------------- <BR>>> >
From: vicenterc@comcast.net<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Nat,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Could you explain why the
differential should be different for<BR>> non-center hinged? I
understand that the mechanical configuration of<BR>> non-center
hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in both<BR>>
directions. However, the travel up and down should be close to
equal.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks,<BR>>>
><BR>>> > --<BR>>> > Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>>> ><BR>>> > -------------- Original
message -------------- <BR>>> > From: "Nat Penton"
<BR><NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>>> ><BR>>> >
Tom<BR>>> > It's just something that is peculiar to the
Southern<BR>> Hemisphere.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Changing
wing incidence will not help. Unless things are really<BR>> screwed
up <G>, at our roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to<BR>>
cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking (
same<BR>> up/down if center hinged ).<BR>>> ><BR>>>
> I find the best check is the fast half-roll in the vertical
up.<BR>> Regards Nat<BR>>> > ----- Original Message -----
<BR>>> > From: Koenig, Tom<BR>>> > To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24
PM<BR>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> > Hi
Troy!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks for the info. I thought
you would be toiling away on<BR>> the next developmental stage of
these engines!!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Hopefully soon, I can
find the time to get flying again. I am<BR>> looking forward to
running this little beast. I am still a little<BR>> concerned in
keeping it quiet though.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Four blade
props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers<BR>> but I just cant
see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint<BR>>
stirrers??<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Also-one more question to
any of you out there in pattern<BR>> land.<BR>>>
><BR>>> > I have struggled with aileron differential for
years. I am<BR>> just not happy with the rolls. I have tried various
design fixes-but<BR>> about the only one that seems to work is to get
the wing back to 0-0 (<BR>> which can be achieved by a few ways,
design, mix or thumbs) Differential<BR>> itself does not seem to work
if the wing is POA ( well...it works for<BR>> half the roll
!)<BR>>> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run
parallel<BR>> ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I like
the feel of<BR>> equal% chord ailerons however.<BR>>>
><BR>>> > I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll
as if they<BR>> had a string up its ...........well you
know!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to
know??? Very good elevator work<BR>>> > fixes it ( hence my 0-0
comment)<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Tom<BR>>>
><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
> ----<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
> ----------<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
> _______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
><BR>><BR>>
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