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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Finally someone said it...</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lightfoot@sc.rr.com href="mailto:lightfoot@sc.rr.com">Jay
Marshall</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 07, 2008 8:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [SPAM]Re:
YS Questions+more - Rolls</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wouldn’t that apply
more to a “lifting” wing rather than the symmetrical wings we use in
pattern?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Jay
</SPAN></FONT></I></B><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Marshall</SPAN></FONT></I></B><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
[mailto:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Robert
Harden<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, March
07, 2008 9:36 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] [SPAM]Re: YS Questions+more - Rolls</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lance, I am taking a private
pilots ground school class, and the aerodynamics portion if it says that the
lower aileron produces lift, and a byproduct of lift is drag. The higher
aileron dumps lift and therefore has less drag. This condition creates
yaw. So, what we are doing in pattern, is to add differential between
the ailerons by raising the ailerons in the upward direction to increase
it's drag to match the lower ailerons drag so we don't get or minimize the
yaw. Hope that helps to understand what is going on.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">krishlan fitzsimmons</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:59 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
[SPAM]Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Lance, </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just a thought though, if going
straight up, up straight down, aren't the up and down ailerons both
inducing equal drag, no lift? I've often wondered if our straight up test is
actually a perfect test for this. It is for our up and down lines, but what
about our 45's or horizontals where we do indeed have lift on the low
aileron and drag on the other? This would create a different condition I'm
guessing.. Probably small, but still a little different because as I
mention, both create drag on the up or downline.. Still, it's the best test
we have I guess.. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Chris <BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@tx.rr.com></SPAN></I></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This thread is timely because I've
been experimenting with differential <BR>recently on a new design that
seems to need it. Never needed it before on a <BR>pattern plane but now I
might. My test is to fly very high, point the nose <BR>directly at the
ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be axial, but <BR>remember that
axial is along the vertical CG, which may not be a line that <BR>pierces
the wing LE/TE. You need to do it a few times to be sure that their <BR>is
an axis that everything rotates around and that line is straight. If it
<BR>wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to determine this is to do
<BR>unlimited rolls while flying straight up. If the airplane consistently
arcs <BR>off its vertical line, you have a problem.<BR><BR>Aerodynamics
suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered aileron <BR>increases
the lift of the airfoil and lift creates drag so this wing may <BR>pull
the plane off axis. the other is that the spiral slipstream of the prop
<BR>is pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so up/right
aileron is <BR>more effective than up/left and down/left is more effective
than down/right.<BR><BR>The overall effect for most pattern planes is
minimal and usually ignorable, <BR>but on IMAC style planes these factors
can be significant and the resulting <BR>differential corrections may need
to be adjusted with something as simple as <BR>a prop change (from 3 blade
to 2 for example).<BR><BR>the correction of course is to start playing
with aileron differential. <BR>Given the contributors I've suggested, its
not a given which way you go with <BR>the differential to correct the
problem and the answer might not even be <BR>symmetrical.<BR><BR>Note that
contributor #1 above will change if you are flying upright or
<BR>inverted, so it would seem that a correction for upright flight would
simply <BR>exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for
any flight <BR>mode but is throttle dependent.<BR><BR>--Lance<BR><BR>-----
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Koenig, Tom"
<BR><TOM.KOENIG@ACTEWAGL.COM.AU>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
Rolls<BR><BR><BR>> My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this,
the more questions I<BR>> have.........rather than
answers!<BR>><BR>> Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a Voodoo
X( Nat??) maybe the<BR>> answer??<BR>><BR>> I still 'feel', that
the best rolls I get are with a 0 differential set<BR>> up-BUT- somehow
I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should that be some sort<BR>> of
equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems to
be<BR>> Pilot dependant!!!<BR>> I'm starting to think that my rudder
control has turned to the<BR>> proverbial trying to micro analyse
what's happening!<BR>><BR>> Tom<BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of<BR>>
shinden1@cox.net<BR>> Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM<BR>> To:
NSRCA Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
Questions+more - Rolls<BR>><BR>> what happens on a 4piont?<BR>>
Bryan<BR>> ---- Del Rykert
<DRYKERT2@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>> The general consensus has
been that the faster moving molecules over<BR>> the top surface don't
require as big as a deflection as the aileron that<BR>> deflects
towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to achieve is<BR>> the
plane tracks as purely straight on a string as possible while one<BR>>
rolls both directions without introducing any yaw.<BR>>><BR>>>
Del<BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>> From:
<BR><GLMILLER3@SUDDENLINK.NET>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06,
2008 2:49 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more
- Rolls<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> > Nat and all you other
aerodynamicists,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > I thought that the
rational for "aileron differential" was that<BR>> upward deflection
causes more drag than downward deflection so to<BR>> equalize drag and
prevent yaw with aileron deflection, aileron<BR>> differential is
needed. It seems that you guys are now saying that<BR>> ain't so.
Please elaborate.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > George<BR>>>
><BR>>> > ---- Nat Penton
<NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote:<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
=============<BR>>> > IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK. With
top hinge, to achieve<BR>> equal vertical travel of the trailing edge
requires different angular<BR>> travel, up vs down. The objective is
zero aerodynamic differential.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Ron I
don't think a fairing would prevent separation but, how are<BR>> you
able to fair the gap using the top hinge ? Nat<BR>>> > -----
Original Message -----<BR>>> > From:
ronlock@comcast.net<BR>>> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM<BR>>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>> ><BR>>>
><BR>>> > And while your at it, I'd appreciate some discussion
of the impact<BR>> of the top hinge system as seen on Viavat, and
Prestige birds - (top<BR>> hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap
at deflection)<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks, Ron
Lockhart<BR>>> ><BR>>> > -------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>>> > From: vicenterc@comcast.net<BR>>>
><BR>>> > Nat,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Could you
explain why the differential should be different for<BR>> non-center
hinged? I understand that the mechanical configuration of<BR>>
non-center hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in
both<BR>> directions. However, the travel up and down should be close
to equal.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks,<BR>>>
><BR>>> > --<BR>>> > Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>>> ><BR>>> > -------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>>> > From: "Nat Penton"
<BR><NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>>> ><BR>>> >
Tom<BR>>> > It's just something that is peculiar to the
Southern<BR>> Hemisphere.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Changing
wing incidence will not help. Unless things are really<BR>> screwed up
<G>, at our roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to<BR>> cause a
problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking ( same<BR>> up/down
if center hinged ).<BR>>> ><BR>>> > I find the best
check is the fast half-roll in the vertical up.<BR>> Regards
Nat<BR>>> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> > From:
Koenig, Tom<BR>>> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>> > Sent:
Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24 PM<BR>>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more<BR>>> ><BR>>>
><BR>>> > Hi Troy!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Thanks
for the info. I thought you would be toiling away on<BR>> the next
developmental stage of these engines!!<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get flying again. I am<BR>>
looking forward to running this little beast. I am still a little<BR>>
concerned in keeping it quiet though.<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers<BR>> but I
just cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint<BR>>
stirrers??<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Also-one more question to any
of you out there in pattern<BR>> land.<BR>>> ><BR>>>
> I have struggled with aileron differential for years. I am<BR>>
just not happy with the rolls. I have tried various design
fixes-but<BR>> about the only one that seems to work is to get the wing
back to 0-0 (<BR>> which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or
thumbs) Differential<BR>> itself does not seem to work if the wing is
POA ( well...it works for<BR>> half the roll !)<BR>>> >
Another black magic fix appears to be to run parallel<BR>> ailerons-but
this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I like the feel of<BR>> equal% chord
ailerons however.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > I am frustrated with
it-I like my planes to roll as if they<BR>> had a string up its
...........well you know!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > OK-any
'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator work<BR>>> > fixes
it ( hence my 0-0 comment)<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Tom<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
> ----<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
> ----------<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> >
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>
><BR>><BR>>
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