<div>I completely agree with this Lance. </div> <div> </div> <div>This is what baffles me with every setup.. Wondering if I have it as good as I can. Or if maybe I should change my cg, and my incidences.. </div> <div>So in setup, should I just go with the standard 1/2 degree positive in the wing, then adjust cg till the ele is centered? No, that doesn't give me the best cg for my style of flying. Or do I adjust the wing incidence till it's centered? No, cuz then I will still have undesirable results in lines and knife.. </div> <div> </div> <div>This is something I have tried to say in my district. It's always pushed to practice, practice, practice. But I feel alot of us are "setup" challenged. I know I am.. We are starting to have one day practice contests here in D7 this year.. I think there are 3.. All the practice in the world doesn't make a person fly much better if he or she is fighting their setup.. It seems those that really know how to setup a
plane don't want to tell their secrets.. Can't blame them. Maybe that's why they are world champions.. </div> <div> </div> <div>Chris<BR><BR><B><I>Lance Van Nostrand <patterndude@tx.rr.com></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Matt,<BR>I can't disagree with anyone's final results but there has to be more going <BR>on with other trim/alignments than just CG and incidence. All things being <BR>in balance, i.e. the plane flies straight and level with no inputs, let's <BR>then add 3oz as a spinner weight. Now the plane drops and requires uptrim <BR>or increased incidence to return us to hands off level flight. Now roll the <BR>plane inverted. That up trim or up inc is now down trim/inc. The weight on <BR>the spinner is still there and the CG hasn't moved. The plane will not fly <BR>hands off and its pull to the ground has to be more than before we started.<BR><BR>I
understand the cosmetic interest in eliminating visible elv trim but at <BR>the small deflections we are talking about, elv trim is simply changing the <BR>angle of attack of the stab. We could eliminate the visible trim by <BR>adjusting the stab incidence instead of the wing with no side effects.<BR><BR>--Lance<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Matthew Frederick" <MJFREDERICK@COX.NET><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:29 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR><BR><BR>> Lance, George is correct that the change in incidence is so that the <BR>> weight<BR>> shift does not affect elevator trim. I have to disagree with his thought<BR>> that you'll have to hold 15% down elevator when inverted. I fly airplanes<BR>> that Bryan has trimmed all the time, and there is a moment when you roll<BR>> inverted with his airplanes that you don't even need elevator at
first.<BR>> First time I flew his Shinden I did a slow roll and I only had to "think"<BR>> about the elevator and rudder inputs. Makes it a lot easier to concentrate<BR>> on the roll rate.<BR>><BR>> Matt<BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From: "george w. kennie" <GEOBET@GIS.NET><BR>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:01 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>><BR>><BR>>> I'm with you Lance. You move that C.G. forward and increase the incidence<BR>>> to<BR>>> support the weight shift and you'd better be prepared to hold 15% down<BR>>> elev<BR>>> when inverted, but then what do I know?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><BR>>> To: <SHINDEN1@COX.NET>; "NSRCA Mailing List"<BR>>>
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:34 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> Thanks Bryan. I will definitely move the cg forward a bit. Let me ask<BR>>>> where you are going with the positive incidence suggestion. <BR>>>> Misalignment<BR>>>> from wing to stab sets up a situation where the positive incidence when<BR>>>> upright is negative incidence when inverted. Of course the elevator <BR>>>> trim<BR>>>> is<BR>>>> adjusted to compensate. Does this misalignment alter the roll axis in<BR>>>> flight?<BR>>>> --Lance<BR>>>><BR>>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>> From: <SHINDEN1@COX.NET><BR>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>> Cc: "Lance Van Nostrand" <PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM><BR>>>> Sent:
Thursday, March 06, 2008 10:07 PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>> Lance<BR>>>>> your airplane is tail heavy<BR>>>>> increase your wing inc. and move the c/g forward and your problem will<BR>>>>> go<BR>>>>> away.<BR>>>>> this goes for IMAC airplanes also.<BR>>>>> we are over thinking the problem.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> design, verticle c/g has no effect on this problem<BR>>>>> Bryan<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> ---- Lance Van Nostrand <PATTERNDUDE@TX.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>>>>> This thread is timely because I've been experimenting with <BR>>>>>> differential<BR>>>>>> recently on a new design that seems to need it. Never needed it <BR>>>>>> before<BR>>>>>> on a<BR>>>>>> pattern plane but
now I might. My test is to fly very high, point the<BR>>>>>> nose<BR>>>>>> directly at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be axial,<BR>>>>>> but<BR>>>>>> remember that axial is along the vertical CG, which may not be a line<BR>>>>>> that<BR>>>>>> pierces the wing LE/TE. You need to do it a few times to be sure that<BR>>>>>> their<BR>>>>>> is an axis that everything rotates around and that line is straight.<BR>>>>>> If<BR>>>>>> it<BR>>>>>> wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to determine this is to <BR>>>>>> do<BR>>>>>> unlimited rolls while flying straight up. If the airplane <BR>>>>>> consistently<BR>>>>>> arcs<BR>>>>>> off its vertical line, you have a problem.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Aerodynamics suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered <BR>>>>>> aileron<BR>>>>>> increases the lift of the airfoil and lift creates drag so this wing<BR>>>>>> may<BR>>>>>> pull the plane off axis. the other is that the spiral slipstream of <BR>>>>>> the<BR>>>>>> prop<BR>>>>>> is pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so up/right<BR>>>>>> aileron<BR>>>>>> is<BR>>>>>> more effective than up/left and down/left is more effective than<BR>>>>>> down/right.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> The overall effect for most pattern planes is minimal and usually<BR>>>>>> ignorable,<BR>>>>>> but on IMAC style planes these factors can be significant and the<BR>>>>>> resulting<BR>>>>>> differential corrections may need to be adjusted
with something as<BR>>>>>> simple<BR>>>>>> as<BR>>>>>> a prop change (from 3 blade to 2 for example).<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> the correction of course is to start playing with aileron <BR>>>>>> differential.<BR>>>>>> Given the contributors I've suggested, its not a given which way you <BR>>>>>> go<BR>>>>>> with<BR>>>>>> the differential to correct the problem and the answer might not even<BR>>>>>> be<BR>>>>>> symmetrical.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Note that contributor #1 above will change if you are flying upright <BR>>>>>> or<BR>>>>>> inverted, so it would seem that a correction for upright flight would<BR>>>>>> simply<BR>>>>>> exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for any<BR>>>>>>
flight<BR>>>>>> mode but is throttle dependent.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> --Lance<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>>>> From: "Koenig, Tom" <TOM.KOENIG@ACTEWAGL.COM.AU><BR>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM<BR>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> > My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this, the more<BR>>>>>> > questions<BR>>>>>> > I<BR>>>>>> > have.........rather than answers!<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a Voodoo X( Nat??) maybe <BR>>>>>> > the<BR>>>>>> >
answer??<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > I still 'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0 differential<BR>>>>>> > set<BR>>>>>> > up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should that be some<BR>>>>>> > sort<BR>>>>>> > of equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems <BR>>>>>> > to<BR>>>>>> > be<BR>>>>>> > Pilot dependant!!!<BR>>>>>> > I'm starting to think that my rudder control has turned to the<BR>>>>>> > proverbial trying to micro analyse what's happening!<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > Tom<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>>>>>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of<BR>>>>>> > shinden1@cox.net<BR>>>>>> > Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM<BR>>>>>> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > what happens on a 4piont?<BR>>>>>> > Bryan<BR>>>>>> > ---- Del Rykert <DRYKERT2@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>wrote:<BR>>>>>> >> The general consensus has been that the faster moving molecules <BR>>>>>> >> over<BR>>>>>> > the top surface don't require as big as a deflection as the aileron<BR>>>>>> > that<BR>>>>>> > deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to achieve<BR>>>>>> > is<BR>>>>>> > the plane tracks as purely straight on a string as possible while <BR>>>>>> >
one<BR>>>>>> > rolls both directions without introducing any yaw.<BR>>>>>> >><BR>>>>>> >> Del<BR>>>>>> >><BR>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>>>>> >> From: <GLMILLER3@SUDDENLINK.NET><BR>>>>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM<BR>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>>>> >><BR>>>>>> >><BR>>>>>> >> > Nat and all you other aerodynamicists,<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > I thought that the rational for "aileron differential" was that<BR>>>>>> > upward deflection causes more drag than downward deflection so to<BR>>>>>> > equalize
drag and prevent yaw with aileron deflection, aileron<BR>>>>>> > differential is needed. It seems that you guys are now saying that<BR>>>>>> > ain't so. Please elaborate.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > George<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > ---- Nat Penton <NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote:<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > =============<BR>>>>>> >> > IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK. With top hinge, to achieve<BR>>>>>> > equal vertical travel of the trailing edge requires different <BR>>>>>> > angular<BR>>>>>> > travel, up vs down. The objective is zero aerodynamic differential.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent separation but, how
are<BR>>>>>> > you able to fair the gap using the top hinge ? Nat<BR>>>>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>>>>>> >> > From: ronlock@comcast.net<BR>>>>>> >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>>>> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM<BR>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > And while your at it, I'd appreciate some discussion of the<BR>>>>>> >> > impact<BR>>>>>> > of the top hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds -<BR>>>>>> > (top<BR>>>>>> > hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection)<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Thanks, Ron
Lockhart<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > -------------- Original message -------------- <BR>>>>>> >> > From: vicenterc@comcast.net<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Nat,<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Could you explain why the differential should be different for<BR>>>>>> > non-center hinged? I understand that the mechanical configuration <BR>>>>>> > of<BR>>>>>> > non-center hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in <BR>>>>>> > both<BR>>>>>> > directions. However, the travel up and down should be close to<BR>>>>>> > equal.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Thanks,<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> >
--<BR>>>>>> >> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > -------------- Original message -------------- <BR>>>>>> >> > From: "Nat Penton" <NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Tom<BR>>>>>> >> > It's just something that is peculiar to the Southern<BR>>>>>> > Hemisphere.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Changing wing incidence will not help. Unless things are<BR>>>>>> >> > really<BR>>>>>> > screwed up <G>, at our roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to<BR>>>>>> > cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking ( same<BR>>>>>> > up/down if center hinged ).<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >>
> I find the best check is the fast half-roll in the vertical<BR>>>>>> >> > up.<BR>>>>>> > Regards Nat<BR>>>>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>>>> >> > From: Koenig, Tom<BR>>>>>> >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24 PM<BR>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Hi Troy!<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Thanks for the info. I thought you would be toiling away <BR>>>>>> >> > on<BR>>>>>> > the next developmental stage of these engines!!<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Hopefully soon, I can find the time
to get flying again. I<BR>>>>>> >> > am<BR>>>>>> > looking forward to running this little beast. I am still a little<BR>>>>>> > concerned in keeping it quiet though.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers<BR>>>>>> > but I just cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint<BR>>>>>> > stirrers??<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Also-one more question to any of you out there in pattern<BR>>>>>> > land.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > I have struggled with aileron differential for years. I am<BR>>>>>> > just not happy with the rolls. I have tried various design fixes-but<BR>>>>>> > about the only one that seems to work is to get the wing back
to 0-0<BR>>>>>> > (<BR>>>>>> > which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or thumbs)<BR>>>>>> > Differential<BR>>>>>> > itself does not seem to work if the wing is POA ( well...it works <BR>>>>>> > for<BR>>>>>> > half the roll !)<BR>>>>>> >> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run parallel<BR>>>>>> > ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I like the feel of<BR>>>>>> > equal% chord ailerons however.<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll as if <BR>>>>>> >> > they<BR>>>>>> > had a string up its ...........well you know!<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator
work<BR>>>>>> >> > fixes it ( hence my 0-0 comment)<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > Tom<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>>>> >> > ----<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________<BR>>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>>>>
>> > ----------<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________<BR>>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________<BR>>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>> >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>>> >> ><BR>>>>>> ><BR>>>>>> > _______________________________________________<BR>>>>>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>> >
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