<div><SPAN contentEditable=false style="DISPLAY: inline-block"></SPAN>Me neither Don... If anything, the new P schedule is pretty dumbed down compared to earlier P schedules and to most Masters schedules we have flown previously</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Makes me wonder if the ones whining have bothered to first fly it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Matt</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey@suddenlink.net><br>
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:54 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?<br>
<br>
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<div class=MsoPlainText>I really don't understand all the discussion about the P pattern difficulty and how it would cause an exodus from Masters if flown.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Here it is:</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>1.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Rev. Split S & Split S Combo, 2/4-pt. roll first, full roll second, inv. Exit<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">This is the Double <SPAN class=SpellE>Immelman</SPAN> the Advanced pattern did year before last.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>2.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Half reverse <SPAN class=SpellE>cuban</SPAN> 8, two ½ rolls in opposite direction<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">No difficulty here.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Three horizontal rolls in opposite direction<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">The beginning classes did 3 rolls for a number of years.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>These are in opposite direction and more difficult but Masters does opposite rolls now.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Stall turn, 2/4-pt. roll up, ½ roll down<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">No difficulty here.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>5.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Top hat, 4/8-pt. roll over top, inverted exit<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Timing is a problem here but no real difficulty.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>6.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Half outside loop, inverted entry<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>1</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">No difficulty here.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>7.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Triangle loop, with ½ rolls in each leg, inverted exit<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">This was a Masters type maneuver not long ago.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>8.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Figure 9, two ½ rolls in opposite direction on downline, inverted entry<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Can get rushed but not difficult.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>9.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Stall turn, ¾ roll up, 1 ¼ snap roll down<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>5</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">OK, it's got a 1-1/4 snap on the downline. </SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>10.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Pull-push-push humpty bump, ½ rolls up and down, inverted exit<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">No difficulty here.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>11.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Reverse 4-pt. roll (2/4-pt in one direction, 2/4-pt opposite), inverted entry and exit<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Masters maneuver.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>12.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Half square loop, full roll up, inverted entry<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>2</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">No difficulty here.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>13.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Two outside loops from top, <SPAN class=SpellE>full</SPAN> integrated roll over top 90 degrees of second loop<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>5</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Some difficulty but not dangerous and learnable.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>14.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Two turn spin, inverted exit<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">No difficulty here.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>15.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Cuban 8, 4/8-pt. roll and full roll in 45 degree <SPAN class=SpellE>downlines</SPAN>, inverted entry<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Masters type maneuver in past.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>16.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Half square loop on corner, ½ rolls 45 degree uplines, inverted exit.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">No difficulty here.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>17.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>45 degrees down, with negative snap roll, ½ roll on exit</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="COLOR: red">This was <SPAN class=SpellE>was</SPAN> an advanced class maneuver 2 years ago.</SPAN></B></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>I think ever Masters model flying today will do these P pattern maneuvers easily.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There is a maneuver in P-11 that will be more difficult but we have had similar maneuvers in Masters before.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The F pattern is different.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>Don</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Ed Alt<br>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 4:55 PM<br>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>Sounds about right to me.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>Ed</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>________________________________</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> From: <A href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">seefo@san.rr.com</A></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 13:14:10 -0800</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Actually, I think the solution is to just decide once and for all that Masters will not be the training ground for FAI and make the Masters sequence the destination difficulty. I suspect that’s actually been done several times and people just keep trying to change it.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> If people want to fly FAI, then they have to just deal with the problems that go along with it. No more complaining that the jump from Masters to FAI is too hard or they don’t have the right airplane, because well.. too bad.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Seems like this topic goes around the list AT LEAST once a year.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of <A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 12:43 PM</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> To: NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Jason,</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> I agree.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Another solution is get the Master class the level that was 8-10 years ago.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It was between Advanced and FAI-F3A.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It was natural for pilots wining Masters to move to FAI and not like we see now more moving from F3A to Masters.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is clear to me that the new Master schedule is equal or harder than the new P schedule.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> --</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> -------------- Original message --------------</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> From: "JShulman" </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> So if FAI pilots, that are flying FAI now, want to fly FAI (P and F), and Masters pilots, that are flying Masters now, want to fly Masters, what are we really "discussing"? Are we looking for a middle class to call Masters + for the guys that want to fly P and not F or Masters? Sounds like the addition of an Expert class in AMA to give the fliers in Masters, that want a P type of sequence, a place to go?</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Regards,</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Jason</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> <A href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/" target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> <A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> <A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> -------------- Original message --------------</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> From: "John Fuqua" </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> I have been following this discussion with some relutance to jump in.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>As a current Masters pilot and old time F3A flyer I to once pushed to have the Master schedule be the P schedule.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But you guys need to look at what FAI has done to the P schedule.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Here is link to the F3A rules.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><A href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4" target=_blank>http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</A></div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 including a non scored takeoff and landing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>AMA Master is 23 including a scored takeoff and landing.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Going to FAI would certainly speed things up (which is what FAI intended for large contests like WC to speed up the prelims and get to the real contest).</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA membership wants for a destination class.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> John</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> ________________________________</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Del Rykert</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14 AM</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> To: NSRCA Mailing List</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Hi Dave..</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> I never saw anyone suggesting to do away with the Masters class.. I have thought of another restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require a specific designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an aircraft in your stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to switch to those type of planes or live with the self imposed handicap. Granted, some of the best can make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers but when needing the 1 point advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it does drive the contestants to seek the best sled that works for them.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> A good friend pointed out something I had lost sight of once.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He acquired a newer designed airplane to his stable that performed the maneuvers he was flying so much easier. The design choice alone was raising his scores by almost 1 point per maneuver. With only a little bit of practice with new plane. He never appreciated the handicap he self imposed until having better equipment. Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a digital do I own..<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>How far behind am I? LOL.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Del</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> ----- Original Message -----</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> From: Dave Burton</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:33 PM</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Del, I’ve never advocated doing away with the Master’s class. I only suggested adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly Master’s as a separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be required to advance to the FAI class unless they chose to do so. Seems to me like it solves several problems. It allows a CD to have more flexibility in arranging flight lines, a larger pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates the need for NSRCA (or others) to come up with a new schedule periodically for the Masters Class. I don’t think there is any difference in the difficulty level of the P schedule and the Masters schedule today and would not require any greater skill level than Masters does today IMO.</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>> Dave Burton</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText> </div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>_________________________________________________________________</div>
<div class=MsoPlainText>Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix".</div>
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