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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Amen.. I agree with Joe <g>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>
Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jlachow@hotmail.com href="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com">Joe
Lachowski</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 1:20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed
topic to killing Masters?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>We've voted on this several times already in the past
and the answer is always NO. <BR> <BR>You will lose half the Masters
pilots. Guarantee I'll be gone. We need to limit the creep in sequence
difficulty that has been occuring. I don't know about you guys, but I don't
like having the international community dictating to us what we fly here in
the US. You want to fly FAI sequences, go fly FAI and take your lumps. You
know we have beaten this subject to death a number of times already. I'm tired
of it already.<BR> <BR>As far as the so called professional pilots
willing to participate in local contests, as a CD, if they don't support the
local level contests, you just eliminate the class an save some
money. That should send a clear signal. I really don't think making
changes for getting more of the so called professionals involved will amount
to anything. The vast majority of top pilots
do participate in local events. There are very few who chose not to. I
think I can count them on one hand. Heck, maybe a couple of
fingers.<g><BR> <BR>Why is there such a huge Masters class? Most
Masters pilots either don't have the skill or time to master rolling circles
and integrated rollers in a sequence to move up to FAI. Face it, we like
to consider ourselves perfectionists at what we do. Who wants to go to a
contest and hack through a manuever that could potentially be a crash
experience. Masters is a great success as it is. Leave it
alone.<BR> <BR>There was mention of sequence length. We can adjust
Masters if we wanted to to shorten the sequence. By the way the current
sequence is a little long, but the 09' sequence is definitely shorter in time
length.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
From: GAA@owt.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Date: Sun, 3 Feb
2008 08:43:58 -0800<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to
killing Masters?<BR><BR>
<META content="Microsoft SafeHTML" name=Generator>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_171054216-03022008><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>I disagree with Master flying the FAI P
schedule. I think we should let the membership vote on this issue and
implement what the majority want.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_171054216-03022008><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_171054216-03022008><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>--Gordon</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=EC_OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:18
AM<BR><B>To:</B> johnfuqua@embarqmail.com; NSRCA Mailing List; 'NSRCA
Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to
killing Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I think the idea is that the destination class (if we changed to
FAI-F3A) will fly the F-Schedule also. I see very strong advantages
from judging point of view. Both classes Masters and FAI-F3A will know
the P schedule really well since both are flying the same maneuvers. I
expect that the judging level is going to be improved. Yes,
the Masters pilots will need to learn the F-Schedule.
Finally, I think more professional pilots will be willing to participate in
local contests because we will have more competition at the FAI-F3A
level. I think if we do this could be fun that is the general
agreement.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=EC_signature id=EC_signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "John Fuqua"
<johnfuqua@embarqmail.com> <BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I have been following this discussion with some
relutance to jump in. As a current Masters pilot and old time F3A
flyer I to once pushed to have the Master schedule be the P
schedule. But you guys need to look at what FAI has done to the P
schedule. Here is link to the F3A rules. <A
href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4"
target=_blank>http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</A>
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 including a
non scored takeoff and landing. AMA Master is 23 including a
scored takeoff and landing. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Going to FAI would certainly speed things up (which
is what FAI intended for large contests like WC to speed up the prelims
and get to the real contest).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA membership wants
for a destination class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>John</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=EC_OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Del
Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic
to killing Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Dave..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I never saw
anyone suggesting to do away with the Masters class.. I have thought
of another restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require a
specific designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an
aircraft in your stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to
switch to those type of planes or live with the self imposed handicap.
Granted, some of the best can make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers
but when needing the 1 point advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it does
drive the contestants to seek the best sled that works for them.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>A good friend pointed out
something I had lost sight of once. He acquired a newer designed
airplane to his stable that performed the maneuvers he was flying so
much easier. The design choice alone was raising his scores by almost 1
point per maneuver. With only a little bit of practice with new plane. He
never appreciated the handicap he self imposed until having better
equipment. Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a digital do I
own.. How far behind am I? LOL. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
Del</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 02, 2008
7:33 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F
at locals?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_Section1>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
Ive never advocated doing away with the Masters class. I only
suggested adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly
Masters as a separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be
required to advance to the FAI class unless they chose to do so. Seems
to me like it solves several problems. It allows a CD to have more
flexibility in arranging flight lines, a larger pool of knowledgeable
judges, eliminates the need for NSRCA (or others) to come up with a new
schedule periodically for the Masters Class. I dont think there is any
difference in the difficulty level of the P schedule and the Masters
schedule today and would not require any greater skill level than
Masters does today IMO. </SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave
Burton</SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Del Rykert
[mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01,
2008 7:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi
Dave</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that
question. Not all people that advance through the AMA classes have
the desire or deep pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level.
Some Master fliers in the past have told me the time commitment is high
to be competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can accept. That may be
the biggest reason. Not certain. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">But
they do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if told
they had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to FAI
some would choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are
willing to commit to play. Some drop out after making it to
intermediate. Others after reaching advanced. Some have stayed and still
fly those classes but real! ize the y don't have the time, desire,
money, to move up and be challenging or at least make a decent showing
they can accept for themselves. I believe the competitive factor varies
with us all and what we are willing to commit to fly
pattern. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why
they are happy to fly Masters.
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del</SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday,
February 01, 2008 6:10 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
whats the difference between FAI type schedules and Masters
schedules? You are correct about previous proposals not being
accepted. I have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the
P schedule and it was defeated both times. Wont do that again, but I
never understood the opposition to it.</SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Del Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So
it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it
has been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want
to fly FAI type schedules. It has been voted on with surveys and
discussed on this list in the past to not use that approach.
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del </SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday,
February 01, 2008 11:48 AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>I believe that FAI rules states that it
is required more than 2 days event to fly F schedule. I
am sure that someone out there is going to be able to find if I am
correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules and
the CD can override this if he announces the change with
time. </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>I agree that in Masters we
should fly the current P schedule. This will make a
natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The rules
should be changed to make the F3A class the final destination
of AMA classes. In other worlds, Masters should not
be the final destination as it is now.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Those
are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI
rules state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and
International events, and are not designed to be flown at a local
contest. </SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Another
good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the
better we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal
mediocrity but the F always just scared me off. Maybe one of
my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone
promises no laughing I might try it.<BR> From comments I have
hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN></P>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:
jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008
19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?</SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN class=EC_ec300100000-01022008><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Problem
with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't
want to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I
understand getting to know 1 sequence is easier to judge, but
the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a handle on the
other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if
FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be
a more Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left
field, or is this right? And since now both the Team Trials and
Worlds pick the winning teams at the end of the contest (after F)
it would make more sense to start flying F locally so it's not a
shock come Nats time.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com
</SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?</SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">There
is a way to solve the peer judging and several other
problems with changing maneuver schedules for Masters
class.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let
Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a
separate class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge
Masters and be completely familiar with the maneuvers and Masters
class can judge FAI and be completely familiar with the schedule.
Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a new
schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like
FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty
that flying the P schedule should not be any problem for masters
class flyers.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">OK,
Flame suit on!</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Mark Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">For
our matrix version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively
ran 2 contests. The scorer set up a second masters only
contest for the B panel to enter their scores. It worked
quite well with only a little confusion. <BR><BR>It did a
great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top
8. Im pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might
have had some variance...but I think thats true regardless of the
format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony
Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> I
suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as
be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the
sequence. Really like the matrix system but not sure how much work
that makes for the scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on how to
score that<BR> One idea that was kicked around in D1
was fly an extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw away.
Each round two masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating through
the entire class. It seems like the time required would work out
the same because the group had two less pilots but again lot of
objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as
the contest end grew near. <BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Date:
Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From:
atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to agree with
Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4 years
back at our district championships with the masters class.
We had 17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and
another 6 or 7 in advanced. So getting any judging at all
would have required heavily using the Intermediate and Sportsman
classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few Advanced
guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario. Given
the options, it worked very well. But it requires some
serious juggling to even try and make it work well. We !
used pe e! r judgi ng for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight
lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each
line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging
at any given time. This allowed the person before and after
each flight some time to prep and decompress before having to jump
in the chair for 5 flights and then start over on the second
line.<BR><BR>Its a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention
that unless you completely randomly resort the flight line each
round, the pilot will be judged but the same group...or maybe more
importantly NOT judged by the same group each round.<BR><BR>It
worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we
were presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries.
<BR><BR>On a related note... A better solution was
tried a few years later when we had similar numbers (16 masters
pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B.
we still used FAI and Advanced j! udges,! but we were
also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We
did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each group
and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a Finalists
group (with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group for
the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more workable, and
I think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46
PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach
without too much regard for political correctness
*****<BR> <BR>I dont think peer judging works. I dont
think it sends the right message about problem solving or
achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster
the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another
of peer judging). <BR> <BR>The #1 component that must
be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges see and
subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see
the same downgrades. The situation doesnt compute if one
judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A
bunch of stuff should probably be in place for this to! work l
ike: ! large n umber of judges, drop high score, drop low
score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and
judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work.
<BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching
the FAI contest. I watched the flying and this scenario VERY
close. My opinion is that I would chose not to compete in FAI in a
peer judging scenario. <BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE:</SPAN><SPAN
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday,
January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a
chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a
commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details.
Do you think you could keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that
were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you
would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and the
sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the overs! ized Ma
sters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> </SPAN></P>
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