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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mark, sorry I did not get back till now. Have a
couple friends very ill and taht takes priority.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have 4 sets of the 26mm, and 4 sets of the
14mm---2 horns per set.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>$20.75 per set-my last cost from France.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Let me know if this will help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I tried to not say anything--but got tired of
going in circles . I think the Document Joe mentioned will set a well thought
out progression thru the classes, and still keep the difficulty needed in
Masters.We are trying to set the progression so it is consistent, but
challanging, with attitude more towards consistently getting high scores before
moving up-not just "I can get through them" attitude. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=atwoodm@paragon-inc.com href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">Mark
Atwood</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 04, 2008 10:41
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed
topic to killing Masters?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">Offlist...<BR><BR>You’re alive! :) I’m staying
the hell out of this thread. I’ll get people pissed at me. But
what good is winning a class if the only reason you won is because the guy
that’s better than you didn’t show up??? WTF?? <BR><BR>Anyway...another
story for another day.<BR><BR>What’s the scoop on control
horns?<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 2/4/08 11:03 AM, "Jerry Stebbins" <<A
href="mailto:JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net">JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT face=Arial>After reading a
bunch of the posts I have a couple questions. <BR>1. Since Masters is the
destination class for all of AMA Pattern, how can it be "TOO difficult"??,
that is what it should be!!<BR>I can understand problems with "kinds of
maneuvers" like "rollers", too many/multiple "snaps",etc. as in FAI, that
make the plane designs need to be more maneuver specific. Those
aspects are controllable by specific constraints written into the Sequence
Process Development Documentation.<BR>2. I recognize there are pilots that
do not have the resources (time/money/mentors), or the inclination to spend
the time it takes to "Master Masters". That is an individual circumstance
that each of us has to handle. How does making the sequences easier so more
pilots can get higher scores with less effort become a viable solution,
instead of defeating the "best of the best" status of the Masters class.
<BR> If the AMA Membership flying Pattern (mostly NSRCA) wants to
provide a class to accommodate those circumstances, then what will be the
litmus test of "having enough of X<Y<Z<" to force them into the
Masters class, or qualify for the pre-Masters class. Try to put that into an
equation that all would deem "fair and equitable". I would suggest if that
is what it takes to eliminate the yearly trek back through all this
discussion-with no substantive changes- let a body of those concerned come
up with an analysis/study/evaluation/findings/recommendations/rules by which
it can be discussed and voted upon. <BR>Asbestos jacket
on<BR>Jerry<BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> vicenterc@comcast.net
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 9:49
PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed
topic to killing Masters?<BR> <BR><BR> <BR>In conclusion,
as Joe said, we need to make sure that we do something to "limit the
creep in sequence difficulty that has been occurring in the Masters
class". For sure this will make easier for Advanced pilots to
move up to Masters. If some of the Masters pilots want more
level we need to add another class or they need to go and fly
FAI-F3A. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>--<BR>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: Bob Kane <getterflash@yahoo.com>
<BR> <BR>My sentiments are in line with Joe's . . . . .
. <BR> <BR> <BR>Bob Kane<BR>getterflash@yahoo.com
<BR><BR><BR> <BR>----- Original Message ----<BR>From:
Joe Lachowski <jlachow@hotmail.com><BR>To: NSRCA Mailing
List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sunday,
February 3, 2008 1:20:19 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
changed topic to killing Masters?<BR><BR> We've voted
on this several times already in the past and the answer is always
NO. <BR> <BR>You will lose half the Masters pilots.
Guarantee I'll be gone. We need to limit the creep in sequence
difficulty that has been occuring. I don't know about you guys,
but I don't like having the international community dictating to
us what we fly here in the US. You want to fly FAI sequences, go
fly FAI and take your lumps. You know we have beaten this subject
to death a number of times already. I'm tired of it
already.<BR> <BR>As far as the so called professional pilots
willing to participate in local contests, as a CD, if they don't
support the local level contests, you just eliminate the class an
save some money. That should send a clear signal. I really don't
think making changes for getting more of the so called
professionals involved will amount to anything. The vast majority
of top pilots do participate in local events. Th! ere are very few
who chose not to. I think I can count them on one hand. Heck,
maybe a couple of fingers.<g><BR> <BR>Why is there such
a huge Masters class? Most Masters pilots either don't have the
skill or time to master rolling circles and integrated rollers in
a sequence to move up to FAI. Face it, we like to consider
ourselves perfectionists at what we do. Who wants to go to a
contest and hack through a manuever that could potentially be a
crash experience. Masters is a great success as it is. Leave
it alone.<BR> <BR>There was mention of sequence length. We
can adjust Masters if we wanted to to shorten the sequence. By the
way the current sequence is a little long, but the 09' sequence is
definitely shorter in time
length.<BR><BR><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">From: GAA@owt.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:43:58
-0800<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing
Masters?<BR><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">I disagree with Master
flying the FAI P schedule. I think we should let the membership
vote on this issue and implement what the majority
want.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">--Gordon<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
johnfuqua@embarqmail.com; NSRCA Mailing List; 'NSRCA Mailing
List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to
killing Masters?<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>I
think the idea is that the destination class (if we changed to
FAI-F3A) will fly the F-Schedule also. I see very strong
advantages from judging point of view. Both classes
Masters and FAI-F3A will know the P schedule really well since
both are flying the same maneuvers. I expect that the
judging level is going to be improved. Yes, the Masters
pilots will need to learn the F-Schedule. Finally, I think
more professional pilots will be willing to participate in local
contests because we will have more competition at the FAI-F3A
level. I think if we do this could be fun that is the
general
agreement.<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>Regards,<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>--<BR>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">-------------- Original
message -------------- <BR>From: "John Fuqua"
<johnfuqua@embarqmail.com>
<BR> <BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>I have been following this discussion with some
relutance to jump in. As a current Masters pilot and old
time F3A flyer I to once pushed to have the Master schedule be
the P schedule. But you guys need to look at what FAI
has done to the P schedule. Here is link to the F3A
rules. <A
href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4">http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</A>
<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>FAI has reduced the total maneuvers
to 19 including a non scored takeoff and landing.
AMA Master is 23 including a scored takeoff and
landing. <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>Going to FAI would certainly speed
things up (which is what FAI intended for large contests like
WC to speed up the prelims and get to the real
contest).<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA
membership wants for a destination
class.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>John<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Del Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday,
February 03, 2008 7:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic
to killing Masters?<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>Hi Dave..<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial> <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>I never saw anyone suggesting
to do away with the Masters class.. I have thought of another
restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require a
specific designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an
aircraft in your stable you can be looking at a prohibitive
change to switch to those type of planes or live with the self
imposed handicap. Granted, some of the best can make a good
showing in FAI type maneuvers but when needing the 1 point
advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it does drive the
contestants to seek the best sled that works for them.
<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>A good friend pointed out
something I had lost sight of once. He acquired a newer
designed airplane to his stable that performed the maneuvers
he was flying so much easier. The design choice alone was
raising his scores by almost 1 point per maneuver. With only a
little bit of practice with new plane. He never appreciated
the handicap he self imposed until having better equipment.
Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a digital do I
own.. How far behind am I? LOL. <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial> Del</FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message
----- <BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Dave Burton <A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"><mailto:burtona@atmc.net></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> 'NSRCA Mailing List' <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 02, 2008
7:33 PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
F at
locals?<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px">Del, Ive never advocated doing away
with the Masters class. I only suggested adopting the most
current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly Masters as a
separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be
required to advance to the FAI class unless they chose to do so.
Seems to me like it solves several problems. It allows a CD
to have more flexibility in arranging flight lines, a larger
pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates the need for NSRCA
(or others) to come up with a new schedule periodically for
the Masters Class. I dont think there is any difference in
the difficulty level of the P schedule and the Masters
schedule today and would not require any greater skill level
than Masters does today IMO. <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px">Dave Burton<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B> Del Rykert
[<A
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com]">mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com]</A>
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Hi
Dave<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I'm
not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that
question. Not all people that advance through the AMA
classes have the desire or deep pockets to handle being
competitive at the FAI level. Some Master fliers in the past
have told me the time commitment is high to be competitive
in FAI class. Higher than they can accept. That may be the
biggest reason. Not certain. </SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"></SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">But they do enjoy the
difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if told they
had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to
FAI some would choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues
some are willing to commit to play. Some drop out after
making it to intermediate. Others after reaching advanced.
Some have stayed and still fly those classes but r! eal! iz
e the y don't have the time, desire, money, to move up and
be challenging or at least make a decent showing they can
accept for themselves. I believe the competitive factor
varies with us all and what we are willing to commit to fly
pattern. <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I'm
even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why
they are happy to fly Masters.
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"> Del<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">----- Original
Message ----- <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B> Dave Burton <A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"><mailto:burtona@atmc.net></A>
<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>To:</B> 'NSRCA
Mailing List' <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us></A>
<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>Sent:</B> Friday,
February 01, 2008 6:10 PM<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14px">Del, whats the
difference between FAI type schedules and Masters
schedules? You are correct about previous proposals not
being accepted. I have submitted a rules change twice for
Masters to fly the P schedule and it was defeated both
times. Wont do that again, but I never understood the
opposition to it.<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Del Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday,
February 01, 2008 3:24 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">So
it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from
pattern as it has been clearly stated that some Master
fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI type schedules.
It has been voted on with surveys and discussed on
this list in the past to not use that approach.
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"> Del
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">----- Original Message -----
<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B> vicenterc@comcast.net
<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us></A>
<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48
AM<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR>I
believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days event
to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going to be
able to find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA
rules and the CD can override this if he announces the change with
time.
<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR>I
agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule. This
will make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The
rules should be changed to make the F3A class the final
destination of AMA classes. In other worlds, Masters
should not be the final destination as it is
now.<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR>--<BR>Vicente
"Vince"
Bortone<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR>--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Tony"
<tony@radiosouthrc.com> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Those are the
very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules state that
the F patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and
are not designed to be flown at a local contest.
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Tony Stillman,
President<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Radio South, Inc.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">139 Altama Connector, Box
322<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Brunswick, GA
31525<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">1-800-962-7802<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">www.radiosouthrc.com <A
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/"><http://www.radiosouthrc.com/></A>
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P align=center><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01,
2008 8:36 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Another good point Jason. The more
that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I can fly
Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just scared me
off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if
everyone promises no laughing I might try it.<BR> From comments I
have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">From: jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008
19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Problem with that is that we're
finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P
classes? I understand getting to know 1 sequence is easier to judge,
but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a handle on
the other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if
FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a
more Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or
is this right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the
winning teams at the end of the contest (after F) it would make more
sense to start flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats
time.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com <A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"><http://www.jasonshulman.com/></A>
<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com <A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"><http://www.shulmanaviation.com/></A>
<BR>www.composite-arf.com <A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"><http://www.composite-arf.com/></A>
<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A><B>On
Behalf Of </B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008
6:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px">There is a way to solve the peer judging
and several other problems with changing maneuver schedules for Masters
class.<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px">Let Masters class fly the most current FAI
P schedule as a separate class. This provides a way that FAI class
can judge Masters and be completely familiar with the maneuvers and
Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar with the
schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a
new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI.
The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying
the P schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14px">OK, Flame suit
on!<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31,
2008 3:56 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR>For our matrix
version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests.
The scorer set up a second masters only contest for the B panel to
enter their scores. It worked quite well with only a little
confusion. <BR><BR>It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys
and getting them into the top 8. Im pretty sure you could argue
that 7-12th place might have had some variance...but I think thats true
regardless of the format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM,
"Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com>
wrote:<BR> <BR><BR><BR> I suspected this would
require super- human objectivity as well as be a logistical nightmare.
However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really like the matrix
system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer. Anyone have
any thoughts on how to score that<BR> One idea that was
kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in Masters to generate an
extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge and don't fly
rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time required would
work out the same because the group had two less pilots but again
lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as
the contest end grew near. <BR> <BR>Anthony<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
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<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15
-0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to agree with
Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4 years back at
our district championships with the masters class. We had 17
pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in
advanced. So getting any judging at all would have required
heavily using the Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR,
heavily burdening the few Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters
flights is a looooong sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging
scenario. Given the options, it worked very well. But it
requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work well.
We ! used p! e e! r judgi ng for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two
flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each
line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at
any given time. This allowed the person before and after each
flight some time to prep and decompress before having to jump in the
chair for 5 flights and then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>Its a
VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you completely
randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but
the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same
group each round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it was messy. I would
only do it again if we were presented with the same grossly offset
numbers of entries. <BR><BR>On a related note... A better
solution was tried a few years later when we had similar numbers (16
masters pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B.
we still used FAI and Advanced j! u! dges,! but we were also
able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds
for each group. Took the top 4 from each group and combined
them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a Finalists group (with the
other 8 judging and flying in their own group for the bottom 8
spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a
fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46
PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:<BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Hey Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50
words or less approach without too much regard for political correctness
*****<BR> <BR>I dont think peer judging works. I dont
think it sends the right message about problem solving or
achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster
the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another
of peer judging). <BR> <BR>The #1 component that must
be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges see and
subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see
the same downgrades. The situation doesnt compute if one
judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A
bunch of stuff should probably be in place for this to! work l
ike: ! ! large n umber of judges, drop high score, drop low
score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and judge-education
is required by all competitors to make this work. <BR> <BR>I
witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I
watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I
would chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim W.<BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR>CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE:</SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"> This
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<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5D"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5D></A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday,
January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a
chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a
commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details.
Do you think you could keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that
were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you
would finally be judged by pilots wh! o know the FAI rules and the
sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the overs! ized Ma sters
class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"></SPAN></FONT>
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