<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16587" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Only that some assumed that master
class was purely taking FAI sequences to make up the masters class
maneuvers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>From: "Dave Burton" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>burtona@atmc.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 5:26
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
changed topic to killing Masters?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> Dang, I missed something. I thought we were
only talking about what maneuver<BR>> schedule Masters Class would
fly!<BR>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: JShulman
[mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com] <BR>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 1:40
PM<BR>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
changed topic to killing Masters?<BR>> <BR>> So if FAI pilots, that are
flying FAI now, want to fly FAI (P and F), and<BR>> Masters pilots, that are
flying Masters now, want to fly Masters, what are<BR>> we really
"discussing"? Are we looking for a middle class to call Masters +<BR>> for
the guys that want to fly P and not F or Masters? Sounds like the<BR>>
addition of an Expert class in AMA to give the fliers in Masters, that
want<BR>> a P type of sequence, a place to go?<BR>> <BR>>
Regards,<BR>> Jason<BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.jasonshulman.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> </FONT><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.shulmanaviation.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> </FONT><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.composite-arf.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From:
</FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Joe
Lachowski<BR>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 1:22 PM<BR>>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed
topic to killing Masters?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Del,
something I totally agree with you on<g>. If that is the gist of
the<BR>> question you ask of which the answer in my mind is no.<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
From: </FONT><A href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>drykert2@rochester.rr.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:59:12
-0500<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to
killing Masters?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Is catering to the
professional pilots what will draw more people into<BR>> the NSRCA and flying
pattern?<BR>> <BR>>
Del<BR>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vicenterc@comcast.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
; NSRCA Mailing List ; 'NSRCA Mailing<BR>>
List'<BR>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008
11:18 AM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
changed topic to killing Masters?<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> I think the idea is that the destination
class (if we changed to<BR>> FAI-F3A) will fly the F-Schedule also. I
see very strong advantages from<BR>> judging point of view. Both
classes Masters and FAI-F3A will know the P<BR>> schedule really well since
both are flying the same maneuvers. I expect<BR>> that the judging
level is going to be improved. Yes, the Masters pilots<BR>> will need
to learn the F-Schedule. Finally, I think more professional<BR>> pilots
will be willing to participate in local contests because we will have<BR>>
more competition at the FAI-F3A level. I think if we do this could be
fun<BR>> that is the general agreement.<BR>>
<BR>> Regards,<BR>>
<BR>> --<BR>>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>>
<BR>> -------------- Original
message --------------<BR>> From:
"John Fuqua" <</FONT><A href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>><BR>>
<BR>> I have been following this
discussion with some relutance to jump<BR>> in. As a current Masters
pilot and old time F3A flyer I to once pushed to<BR>> have the Master
schedule be the P schedule. But you guys need to look at<BR>> what FAI
has done to the P schedule. Here is link to the F3A rules.<BR>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>
FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 including a non scored<BR>> takeoff
and landing. AMA Master is 23 including a scored takeoff and<BR>>
landing.<BR>> <BR>> Going to FAI
would certainly speed things up (which is what FAI<BR>> intended for large
contests like WC to speed up the prelims and get to the<BR>> real
contest).<BR>> <BR>> Not sure
this is what AMA/NSRCA membership wants for a destination<BR>> class.<BR>>
<BR>> John<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
From: </FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del
Rykert<BR>> Sent: Sunday, February
03, 2008 7:14 AM<BR>> To: NSRCA
Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> Hi Dave..<BR>>
<BR>> I never saw anyone suggesting
to do away with the Masters class.. I<BR>> have thought of another
restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers<BR>> require a specific
designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an<BR>> aircraft in
your stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to switch<BR>> to
those type of planes or live with the self imposed handicap. Granted,<BR>>
some of the best can make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers but when<BR>>
needing the 1 point advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it does drive
the<BR>> contestants to seek the best sled that works for them.<BR>>
<BR>> A good friend pointed out
something I had lost sight of once. He<BR>> acquired a newer designed
airplane to his stable that performed the<BR>> maneuvers he was flying so
much easier. The design choice alone was raising<BR>> his scores by almost 1
point per maneuver. With only a little bit of<BR>> practice with new plane.
He never appreciated the handicap he self imposed<BR>> until having better
equipment. Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a<BR>> digital do I
own.. How far behind am I? LOL.<BR>>
<BR>>
Del<BR>> ----- Original
Message -----<BR>>
From: Dave Burton<BR>>
To: 'NSRCA Mailing
List'<BR>> Sent:
Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:33
PM<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> Del, I've never
advocated doing away with the Master's class. I<BR>> only suggested adopting
the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly<BR>> Master's as a separate
class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be<BR>> required to advance to
the FAI class unless they chose to do so. Seems to me<BR>> like it solves
several problems. It allows a CD to have more flexibility in<BR>> arranging
flight lines, a larger pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates<BR>> the need
for NSRCA (or others) to come up with a new schedule periodically<BR>> for
the Masters Class. I don't think there is any difference in the<BR>>
difficulty level of the P schedule and the Masters schedule today and
would<BR>> not require any greater skill level than Masters does today
IMO.<BR>> <BR>> Dave
Burton<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> From: Del Rykert
[mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com]<BR>>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09
PM<BR>> To: NSRCA
Mailing List<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> Hi Dave<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
I'm not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that<BR>> question.
Not all people that advance through the AMA classes have the<BR>> desire or
deep pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level. Some<BR>> Master
fliers in the past have told me the time commitment is high to be<BR>>
competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can accept. That may be the<BR>>
biggest reason. Not certain. But they do enjoy the difficulty and
challenge<BR>> of flying masters and if told they had to move to FAI or if
pointed out and<BR>> made to move up to FAI some would choose to leave. I see
it as part of the<BR>> dues some are willing to commit to play. Some drop out
after making it to<BR>> intermediate. Others after reaching advanced. Some
have stayed and still fly<BR>> those classes but real! ize the y don't have
the time, desire, money, to<BR>> move up and be challenging or at least make
a decent showing they can accept<BR>> for themselves. I believe the
competitive factor varies with us all and what<BR>> we are willing to commit
to fly pattern.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> I'm even suspect
their are other issues that escape us and why<BR>> they are happy to fly
Masters.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
Del<BR>>
<BR>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>>
<BR>> From:
Dave Burton<BR>>
<BR>> To:
'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR>>
<BR>> Sent:
Friday, February 01, 2008 6:10 PM<BR>>
<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> Del,
what's the difference between " FAI type" schedules and<BR>> "Masters
schedules"? You are correct about previous proposals not being<BR>> accepted.
I have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the P<BR>> schedule
and it was defeated both times. Won't do that again, but I never<BR>>
understood the opposition to it.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> From:
</FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del
Rykert<BR>>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24
PM<BR>> To:
NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> So it
would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern<BR>> as it has
been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want<BR>> to fly
FAI type schedules. It has been voted on with surveys and
discussed<BR>> on this list in the past to not use that approach.<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
Del<BR>>
<BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>>
<BR>>
From: </FONT><A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vicenterc@comcast.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>
<BR>>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>
<BR>>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48 AM<BR>>
<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than<BR>> 2 days
event to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going<BR>>
to be able to find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use the
AMA<BR>> rules and the CD can override this if he announces the change with
time.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule.<BR>> This will
make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The rules<BR>>
should be changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA<BR>>
classes. In other worlds, Masters should not be the final
destination as<BR>> it is now.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
--<BR>>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
-------------- Original message
--------------<BR>>
From: "Tony" <</FONT><A href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>tony@radiosouthrc.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>><BR>>
<BR>>
Those are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The<BR>> FAI
rules state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and<BR>>
International events, and are not designed to be flown at a local
contest=<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing
list<BR>> </FONT><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> </FONT><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> cussion<BR>></FONT></BODY></HTML>