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<title>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Right on
Mark. I failed to address this in my previous post but advance points are influenced
more by who you compete against than your own ability.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, February 04, 2008
8:42 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
changed topic to killing Masters?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Offlist...<br>
<br>
You’re alive! :) I’m staying the hell out of this thread. I’ll get
people pissed at me. But what good is winning a class if the only reason
you won is because the guy that’s better than you didn’t show up??? WTF??
<br>
<br>
Anyway...another story for another day.<br>
<br>
What’s the scoop on control horns?<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/4/08 11:03 AM, "Jerry Stebbins"
<JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net> wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>After reading a bunch of
the posts I have a couple questions. <br>
1. Since Masters is the destination class for all of AMA Pattern, how can it be
"TOO difficult"??, that is what it should be!!<br>
I can understand problems with "kinds of maneuvers" like
"rollers", too many/multiple "snaps",etc. as in FAI, that
make the plane designs need to be more maneuver specific. Those aspects
are controllable by specific constraints written into the Sequence Process
Development Documentation.<br>
2. I recognize there are pilots that do not have the resources
(time/money/mentors), or the inclination to spend the time it takes to
"Master Masters". That is an individual circumstance that each of us
has to handle. How does making the sequences easier so more pilots can get
higher scores with less effort become a viable solution, instead of defeating
the "best of the best" status of the Masters class. <br>
If the AMA Membership flying Pattern (mostly NSRCA) wants to provide a
class to accommodate those circumstances, then what will be the litmus test of
"having enough of X<Y<Z<" to force them into the Masters
class, or qualify for the pre-Masters class. Try to put that into an equation
that all would deem "fair and equitable". I would suggest if that is
what it takes to eliminate the yearly trek back through all this
discussion-with no substantive changes- let a body of those concerned come up
with an analysis/study/evaluation/findings/recommendations/rules by which it
can be discussed and voted upon. <br>
Asbestos jacket on<br>
Jerry</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> vicenterc@comcast.net <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 03, 2008
9:49 PM<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
changed topic to killing Masters?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In conclusion, as Joe said, we need to make sure that we do something to
"limit the creep in sequence difficulty that has been occurring in
the Masters class". For sure this will make easier for
Advanced pilots to move up to Masters. If some of the Masters
pilots want more level we need to add another class or they need to go
and fly FAI-F3A. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>--------------
Original message -------------- <br>
From: Bob Kane <getterflash@yahoo.com> <br>
<br>
My sentiments are in line with Joe's . . . . . . <br>
<br>
<br>
Bob Kane<br>
getterflash@yahoo.com <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----<br>
From: Joe Lachowski <jlachow@hotmail.com><br>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2008 1:20:19 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?<br>
<br>
We've voted on this several times already in the past and the
answer is always NO. <br>
<br>
You will lose half the Masters pilots. Guarantee I'll be gone. We
need to limit the creep in sequence difficulty that has been occuring. I
don't know about you guys, but I don't like having the international
community dictating to us what we fly here in the US. You want to fly FAI
sequences, go fly FAI and take your lumps. You know we have beaten this
subject to death a number of times already. I'm tired of it already.<br>
<br>
As far as the so called professional pilots willing to participate in
local contests, as a CD, if they don't support the local level contests,
you just eliminate the class an save some money. That should send a clear
signal. I really don't think making changes for getting more of the
so called professionals involved will amount to anything. The vast
majority of top pilots do participate in local events. Th! ere are very
few who chose not to. I think I can count them on one hand. Heck, maybe a
couple of fingers.<g><br>
<br>
Why is there such a huge Masters class? Most Masters pilots either don't
have the skill or time to master rolling circles and integrated rollers
in a sequence to move up to FAI. Face it, we like to consider ourselves
perfectionists at what we do. Who wants to go to a contest and hack
through a manuever that could potentially be a crash experience.
Masters is a great success as it is. Leave it alone.<br>
<br>
There was mention of sequence length. We can adjust Masters if we wanted
to to shorten the sequence. By the way the current sequence is a little
long, but the 09' sequence is definitely shorter in time length.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>From:
GAA@owt.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:43:58 -0800<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>I disagree with
Master flying the FAI P schedule. I think we should let the membership
vote on this issue and implement what the majority want.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:blue'>--Gordon<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>vicenterc@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 03, 2008
8:18 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> johnfuqua@embarqmail.com;
NSRCA Mailing List; 'NSRCA Mailing List'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
changed topic to killing Masters?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I think the idea is that the destination class (if we changed to FAI-F3A)
will fly the F-Schedule also. I see very strong advantages from
judging point of view. Both classes Masters and FAI-F3A will know
the P schedule really well since both are flying the same maneuvers.
I expect that the judging level is going to be improved. Yes,
the Masters pilots will need to learn the F-Schedule. Finally, I
think more professional pilots will be willing to participate in local
contests because we will have more competition at the FAI-F3A level.
I think if we do this could be fun that is the general agreement.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:2.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>--------------
Original message -------------- <br>
From: "John Fuqua" <johnfuqua@embarqmail.com> <br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I have been following this discussion with
some relutance to jump in. As a current Masters pilot and old time
F3A flyer I to once pushed to have the Master schedule be the P schedule.
But you guys need to look at what FAI has done to the P schedule.
Here is link to the F3A rules. <a
href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4">http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19
including a non scored takeoff and landing. AMA Master is 23
including a scored takeoff and landing. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Going to FAI would certainly speed things
up (which is what FAI intended for large contests like WC to speed up the
prelims and get to the real contest).<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA membership
wants for a destination class.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>John<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Del Rykert<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 03, 2008
7:14 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Hi Dave..<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I never saw anyone suggesting to do away
with the Masters class.. I have thought of another restriction/factor.
Some of the FAI maneuvers require a specific designed plane to do them
well. If you don't have such an aircraft in your stable you can be looking
at a prohibitive change to switch to those type of planes or live with
the self imposed handicap. Granted, some of the best can make a good
showing in FAI type maneuvers but when needing the 1 point advantage in a
high K-Factor maneuver it does drive the contestants to seek the best
sled that works for them. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>A good friend pointed out something I had
lost sight of once. He acquired a newer designed airplane to his
stable that performed the maneuvers he was flying so much easier. The
design choice alone was raising his scores by almost 1 point per
maneuver. With only a little bit of practice with new plane. He never
appreciated the handicap he self imposed until having better equipment.
Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a digital do I own.. How
far behind am I? LOL. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'> Del</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:3.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:3.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Dave Burton <a
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"><mailto:burtona@atmc.net></a> <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'NSRCA Mailing
List' <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February 02,
2008 7:33 PM<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Del, Ive never advocated doing
away with the Masters class. I only suggested adopting the most current
FAI P maneuver schedule and fly Masters as a separate class as we do
today. Masters pilots would not be required to advance to the FAI class
unless they chose to do so. Seems to me like it solves several problems.
It allows a CD to have more flexibility in arranging flight lines, a
larger pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates the need for NSRCA (or
others) to come up with a new schedule periodically for the Masters
Class. I dont think there is any difference in the difficulty level of
the P schedule and the Masters schedule today and would not require any
greater skill level than Masters does today IMO. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Dave Burton<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Del Rykert [<a href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com%5D">mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com]</a>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 01,
2008 7:09 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F
at locals?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Hi Dave<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I'm not trying to imply that I have the
correct answer to that question. Not all people that advance through the
AMA classes have the desire or deep pockets to handle being competitive
at the FAI level. Some Master fliers in the past have told me the time
commitment is high to be competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can
accept. That may be the biggest reason. Not certain. But they do
enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if told they had
to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to FAI some would
choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are willing to commit
to play. Some drop out after making it to intermediate. Others after
reaching advanced. Some have stayed and still fly those classes but r!
eal! iz e the y don't have the time, desire, money, to move up and be
challenging or at least make a decent showing they can accept for themselves.
I believe the competitive factor varies with us all and what we are
willing to commit to fly pattern. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I'm even suspect their are other issues
that escape us and why they are happy to fly Masters.
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> Del</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:3.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:4.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Dave Burton <a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"><mailto:burtona@atmc.net></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> 'NSRCA Mailing List' <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Friday, February 01, 2008 6:10 PM<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Del, whats the difference between
FAI type schedules and Masters schedules? You are correct about previous
proposals not being accepted. I have submitted a rules change twice for
Masters to fly the P schedule and it was defeated both times. Wont do
that again, but I never understood the opposition to it.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Del Rykert<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 01, 2008
3:24 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>So it would be acceptable to you to drive
some away from pattern as it has been clearly stated that some Master
fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI type schedules. It has been
voted on with surveys and discussed on this list in the past to not use
that approach. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> Del </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> vicenterc@comcast.net <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48 AM<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days
event to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going
to be able to find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use
the AMA rules and the CD can override this if he announces the change
with time. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule. This
will make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The
rules should be changed to make the F3A class the final destination
of AMA classes. In other worlds, Masters should not be the
final destination as it is now.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com> <br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Those are the very reasons that I stopped
flying FAI. The FAI rules state that the F patterns are for
Regional, National and International events, and are not designed to be
flown at a local contest. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Tony Stillman, President<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Radio South, Inc.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Brunswick, GA 31525<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>1-800-962-7802<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>www.radiosouthrc.com <a
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/"><http://www.radiosouthrc.com/></a> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=2
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 01, 2008
8:36 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion]
F at locals?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Another good point Jason. The
more that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I can
fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just scared
me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if
everyone promises no laughing I might try it.<br>
From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal
with rollers.<br>
<br>
Anthony</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=2
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>From: jshulman@cfl.rr.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Problem with that is that we're finding
that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes?
I understand getting to know 1 sequence is easier to judge, but the
Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a handle on the other class
without much work. Its probably just me, but if FAI were to fly both P
and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more Masters
class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this right?
And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at
the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying
F locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
www.jasonshulman.com <a href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"><http://www.jasonshulman.com/></a>
<br>
www.shulmanaviation.com <a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"><http://www.shulmanaviation.com/></a>
<br>
www.composite-arf.com <a href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"><http://www.composite-arf.com/></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008
6:53 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'NSRCA Mailing List'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>There is a way to solve the
peer judging and several other problems with changing maneuver schedules
for Masters class.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Let Masters class fly the most
current FAI P schedule as a separate class. This provides a way
that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely familiar with the
maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar with
the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with
a new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just
like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in
difficulty that flying the P schedule should not be any problem for
masters class flyers.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>OK, Flame suit on!<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008
3:56 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
For our matrix version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively
ran 2 contests. The scorer set up a second masters only
contest for the B panel to enter their scores. It worked
quite well with only a little confusion. <br>
<br>
It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the
top 8. Im pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might
have had some variance...but I think thats true regardless of the format.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano"
<anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as
well as be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the
sequence. Really like the matrix system but not sure how much work
that makes for the scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that<br>
One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round
in Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots
judge and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the
time required would work out the same because the group had two less
pilots but again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious )
required especially as the contest end grew near. <br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
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<br>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<br>
From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Anthony,<br>
<br>
I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this
about 4 years back at our district championships with the masters class.
We had 17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and
another 6 or 7 in advanced. So getting any judging at all
would have required heavily using the Intermediate and Sportsman
classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few Advanced guys...and
sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong sentence.<br>
<br>
So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked
very well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and
make it work well. We ! used p! e e! r judgi ng for 4 of the 6
rounds. Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5
judges on each line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7
pilots not judging at any given time. This allowed the person
before and after each flight some time to prep and decompress before
having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start over on the
second line.<br>
<br>
Its a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you
completely randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be
judged but the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the
same group each round.<br>
<br>
It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were
presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries. <br>
<br>
On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later
when we had similar numbers (16 masters pilots)<br>
<br>
We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still
used FAI and Advanced j! u! dges,! but we were also able to
sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds
for each group. Took the top 4 from each group and combined
them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a Finalists group (with the other
8 judging and flying in their own group for the bottom 8 spots.)<br>
<br>
This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in
the long run.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim"
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Hey Anthony,<br>
<br>
**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for
political correctness *****<br>
<br>
I dont think peer judging works. I dont think it sends the right
message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per
maneuver for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it
does not foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive
environment (Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or
another of peer judging). <br>
<br>
The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all
pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points per
maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesnt compute if
one judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A
bunch of stuff should probably be in place for this to! work l ike:
! ! large n umber of judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc.
The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and judge-education is required
by all competitors to make this work. <br>
<br>
I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I
watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I
would chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario. <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
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</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Jim W.<br>
<br>
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</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
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color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</a>
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<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony
Romano<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31,
2008 1:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a
commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do
you think you could keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that were there
how did it work out? Sound interesting because you would finally be
judged by pilots wh! o know the FAI rules and the sequence.<br>
Could this be a solution for the overs! ized Ma sters class? Obvious
drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
<br>
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