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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>After reading a bunch of the posts I have a couple
questions. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. Since Masters is the destination class for all
of AMA Pattern, how can it be "TOO difficult"??, that is what it should
be!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can understand problems with "kinds of maneuvers"
like "rollers", too many/multiple "snaps",etc. as in FAI, that make
the plane designs need to be more maneuver specific. Those aspects are
controllable by specific constraints written into the Sequence Process
Development Documentation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. I recognize there are pilots that do not have
the resources (time/money/mentors), or the inclination to spend the time it
takes to "Master Masters". That is an individual circumstance that each of us
has to handle. How does making the sequences easier so more pilots can get
higher scores with less effort become a viable solution, instead of
defeating the "best of the best" status of the Masters class. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> If the AMA Membership flying Pattern
(mostly NSRCA) wants to provide a class to accommodate those circumstances,
then what will be the litmus test of "having enough of X<Y<Z<" to force
them into the Masters class, or qualify for the pre-Masters class. Try to put
that into an equation that all would deem "fair and equitable". I would suggest
if that is what it takes to eliminate the yearly trek back through all this
discussion-with no substantive changes- let a body of those concerned come up
with an analysis/study/evaluation/findings/recommendations/rules by which it can
be discussed and voted upon. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Asbestos jacket on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 9:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed
topic to killing Masters?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In conclusion, as Joe said, we need to make sure that we do
something to "limit the creep in sequence difficulty that has been
occurring in the Masters class". For sure this will make easier for
Advanced pilots to move up to Masters. If some of the Masters pilots
want more level we need to add another class or they need to go and fly
FAI-F3A. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: Bob Kane
<getterflash@yahoo.com> <BR>
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<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">My
sentiments are in line with Joe's . . . . . . <BR>
<DIV> </DIV>Bob Kane<BR>getterflash@yahoo.com
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif"><BR><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif">-----
Original Message ----<BR>From: Joe Lachowski
<jlachow@hotmail.com><BR>To: NSRCA Mailing List
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2008
1:20:19 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing
Masters?<BR><BR>
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We've voted on this several times already in the past and the
answer is always NO. <BR> <BR>You will lose half the Masters
pilots. Guarantee I'll be gone. We need to limit the creep in sequence
difficulty that has been occuring. I don't know about you guys, but I don't
like having the international community dictating to us what we fly here in
the US. You want to fly FAI sequences, go fly FAI and take your lumps. You
know we have beaten this subject to death a number of times already. I'm
tired of it already.<BR> <BR>As far as the so called professional
pilots willing to participate in local contests, as a CD, if they don't
support the local level contests, you just eliminate the class an save some
money. That should send a clear signal. I really don't think
making changes for getting more of the so called professionals
involved will amount to anything. The vast majority of
top pilots do participate in local events. Th! ere are very few
who chose not to. I think I can count them on one hand. Heck, maybe a couple
of fingers.<g><BR> <BR>Why is there such a huge Masters class?
Most Masters pilots either don't have the skill or time to master rolling
circles and integrated rollers in a sequence to move up to FAI. Face
it, we like to consider ourselves perfectionists at what we do. Who wants
to go to a contest and hack through a manuever that could potentially
be a crash experience. Masters is a great success as it is. Leave
it alone.<BR> <BR>There was mention of sequence length. We can adjust
Masters if we wanted to to shorten the sequence. By the way the current
sequence is a little long, but the 09' sequence is definitely shorter in
time length.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN
style="BORDER-TOP: rgb(128,128,128) 1px solid; MARGIN: 8px 0px; OVERFLOW: hidden; WIDTH: 100%; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(212,208,200) 1px solid; HEIGHT: 2px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: black"></SPAN>From:
GAA@owt.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008
08:43:58 -0800<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing
Masters?<BR><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_171054216-03022008><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>I disagree with Master flying the FAI P
schedule. I think we should let the membership vote on this issue and
implement what the majority want.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_171054216-03022008><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_171054216-03022008><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>--Gordon</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=EC_OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
style="BORDER-TOP: rgb(128,128,128) 1px solid; MARGIN: 8px 0px; OVERFLOW: hidden; WIDTH: 100%; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(212,208,200) 1px solid; HEIGHT: 2px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: black"></SPAN><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:18
AM<BR><B>To:</B> johnfuqua@embarqmail.com; NSRCA Mailing List; 'NSRCA
Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to
killing Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think the idea is that the destination class (if we changed to
FAI-F3A) will fly the F-Schedule also. I see very strong advantages
from judging point of view. Both classes Masters and FAI-F3A will
know the P schedule really well since both are flying the same
maneuvers. I expect that the judging level is going to be
improved. Yes, the Masters pilots will need to learn the
F-Schedule. Finally, I think more professional pilots will be
willing to participate in local contests because we will have more
competition at the FAI-F3A level. I think if we do this
could be fun that is the general agreement.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=EC_signature id=EC_signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "John Fuqua"
<johnfuqua@embarqmail.com> <BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I have been following this discussion
with some relutance to jump in. As a current Masters pilot and old
time F3A flyer I to once pushed to have the Master schedule be the P
schedule. But you guys need to look at what FAI has done to the P
schedule. Here is link to the F3A rules. <A
href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</A>
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to
19 including a non scored takeoff and landing. AMA Master is
23 including a scored takeoff and landing. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Going to FAI would certainly speed
things up (which is what FAI intended for large contests like WC to
speed up the prelims and get to the real contest).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA
membership wants for a destination class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=EC_791490514-03022008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>John</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=EC_OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
style="BORDER-TOP: rgb(128,128,128) 1px solid; MARGIN: 8px 0px; OVERFLOW: hidden; WIDTH: 100%; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(212,208,200) 1px solid; HEIGHT: 2px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: black"></SPAN><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Del Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing
Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Dave..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I never saw
anyone suggesting to do away with the Masters class.. I have
thought of another restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require
a specific designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an
aircraft in your stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to
switch to those type of planes or live with the self imposed handicap.
Granted, some of the best can make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers
but when needing the 1 point advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it
does drive the contestants to seek the best sled that works for
them. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>A good friend pointed out
something I had lost sight of once. He acquired a newer designed
airplane to his stable that performed the maneuvers he was flying
so much easier. The design choice alone was raising his scores by almost
1 point per maneuver. With only a little bit of practice with new plane.
He never appreciated the handicap he self imposed until having
better equipment. Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a digital
do I own.. How far behind am I? LOL. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
Del</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" target=_blank
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:33 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=EC_Section1>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
Ive never advocated doing away with the Masters class. I only
suggested adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly
Masters as a separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not
be required to advance to the FAI class unless they chose to do so.
Seems to me like it solves several problems. It allows a CD to have
more flexibility in arranging flight lines, a larger pool of
knowledgeable judges, eliminates the need for NSRCA (or others) to
come up with a new schedule periodically for the Masters Class. I dont
think there is any difference in the difficulty level of the P
schedule and the Masters schedule today and would not require any
greater skill level than Masters does today IMO. </SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave
Burton</SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Del
Rykert [mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday,
February 01, 2008 7:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi
Dave</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that
question. Not all people that advance through the AMA classes
have the desire or deep pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI
level. Some Master fliers in the past have told me the time commitment
is high to be competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can accept.
That may be the biggest reason. Not certain. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">But
they do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if
told they had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to
FAI some would choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are
willing to commit to play. Some drop out after making it to
intermediate. Others after reaching advanced. Some have stayed and
still fly those classes but r! eal! iz e the y don't have the time,
desire, money, to move up and be challenging or at least make a decent
showing they can accept for themselves. I believe the competitive
factor varies with us all and what we are willing to commit to fly
pattern. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why
they are happy to fly Masters.
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del</SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" target=_blank
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA
Mailing List'</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday,
February 01, 2008 6:10 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
whats the difference between FAI type schedules and Masters
schedules? You are correct about previous proposals not being
accepted. I have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly
the P schedule and it was defeated both times. Wont do that again,
but I never understood the opposition to it.</SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank
rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Del Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So
it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it
has been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not
want to fly FAI type schedules. It has been voted on with
surveys and discussed on this list in the past to not use that
approach. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del </SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA
Mailing List</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48 AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>I believe that FAI rules states that it
is required more than 2 days event to fly F schedule. I
am sure that someone out there is going to be able to find if I am
correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules and
the CD can override this if he announces the change with
time. </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>I agree that in Masters we
should fly the current P schedule. This will make
a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The
rules should be changed to make the F3A class the final
destination of AMA classes. In other worlds,
Masters should not be the final destination as it is
now.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal>-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com>
</P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Those
are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI
rules state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and
International events, and are not designed to be flown at a
local contest. </SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Tony
Stillman, President</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Radio
South, Inc.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">139
Altama Connector, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">Box</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">Brunswick<SPAN style="COLOR: navy">,
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">GA</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">31525</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">1-800-962-7802</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/"
target=_blank>www.radiosouthrc.com</A></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008
8:36 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Another
good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the
better we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal
mediocrity but the F always just scared me off. Maybe one
of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone
promises no laughing I might try it.<BR> From comments I
have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN></P>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:
jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008
19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?</SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN class=EC_ec300100000-01022008><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Problem
with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't
want to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I
understand getting to know 1 sequence is easier to judge,
but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a handle on
the other class without much work. Its probably just me,
but if FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P
might be a more Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off
in left field, or is this right? And since now both the Team
Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at the end of the
contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F
locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><SPAN><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"
target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A></SPAN><BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"
target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"
target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A> </SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?</SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">There
is a way to solve the peer judging and several other
problems with changing maneuver schedules for Masters
class.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let
Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a
separate class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge
Masters and be completely familiar with the maneuvers and
Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar with the
schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with
a new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just
like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in
difficulty that flying the P schedule should not be any problem
for masters class flyers.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">OK,
Flame suit on!</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Mark Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008
3:56 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">For
our matrix version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively
ran 2 contests. The scorer set up a second masters only
contest for the B panel to enter their scores. It worked
quite well with only a little confusion. <BR><BR>It did a
great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the
top 8. Im pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place
might have had some variance...but I think thats true regardless
of the format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM,
"Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com>
wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> I
suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as
be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the
sequence. Really like the matrix system but not sure how much
work that makes for the scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on how
to score that<BR> One idea that was kicked around in
D1 was fly an extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw
away. Each round two masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating
through the entire class. It seems like the time required would
work out the same because the group had two less pilots but
again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required
especially as the contest end grew near.
<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Date:
Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From:
atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to agree
with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4
years back at our district championships with the masters class.
We had 17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and
another 6 or 7 in advanced. So getting any judging at all
would have required heavily using the Intermediate and Sportsman
classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few Advanced
guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario.
Given the options, it worked very well. But it
requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work
well. We ! used p! e e! r judgi ng for 4 of the 6 rounds.
Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5
judges on each line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7
pilots not judging at any given time. This allowed the
person before and after each flight some time to prep and
decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and
then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>Its a VERY VERY VERY
busy process, not to mention that unless you completely randomly
resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but
the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the
same group each round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it was messy.
I would only do it again if we were presented with the
same grossly offset numbers of entries. <BR><BR>On a
related note... A better solution was tried a few years later
when we had similar numbers (16 masters pilots)<BR><BR>We
created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still
used FAI and Advanced j! u! dges,! but we were also able to
sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds
for each group. Took the top 4 from each group and
combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a Finalists
group (with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group
for the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more
workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46
PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less
approach without too much regard for political correctness
*****<BR> <BR>I dont think peer judging works. I dont
think it sends the right message about problem solving or
achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster
the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another
of peer judging). <BR> <BR>The #1 component that must
be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges see and
subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see
the same downgrades. The situation doesnt compute if one
judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A
bunch of stuff should probably be in place for this to! work l
ike: ! ! large n umber of judges, drop high score, drop
low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and
judge-education is required by all competitors to make this
work. <BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot
watching the FAI contest. I watched the flying and this
scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not to
compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> This
e-mail message, includ! ing any attachments, is for the sole use
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not the intended recipient(s), please contact the sender by
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<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5D"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday,
January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a
chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a
commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details.
Do you think you could keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that
were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you
would finally be judged by pilots wh! o know the FAI rules and
the sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the overs!
ized Ma sters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to
inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> </SPAN></P>
<DIV class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Helping
your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we
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