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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Is catering to the professional
pilots what will draw more people into the NSRCA and flying pattern?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=johnfuqua@embarqmail.com
href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com">johnfuqua@embarqmail.com</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 11:18
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed
topic to killing Masters?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I think the idea is that the destination class (if we changed to FAI-F3A)
will fly the F-Schedule also. I see very strong advantages from judging
point of view. Both classes Masters and FAI-F3A will know the P schedule
really well since both are flying the same maneuvers. I expect that the
judging level is going to be improved. Yes, the Masters pilots will
need to learn the F-Schedule. Finally, I think more professional
pilots will be willing to participate in local contests because we will have
more competition at the FAI-F3A level. I think if we do this
could be fun that is the general agreement.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=signature id=signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "John Fuqua"
<johnfuqua@embarqmail.com> <BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I have been following this discussion with some
relutance to jump in. As a current Masters pilot and old time F3A
flyer I to once pushed to have the Master schedule be the P schedule.
But you guys need to look at what FAI has done to the P schedule. Here
is link to the F3A rules. <A
href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4">http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</A>
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 including a
non scored takeoff and landing. AMA Master is 23 including a
scored takeoff and landing. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Going to FAI would certainly speed things up (which is
what FAI intended for large contests like WC to speed up the prelims and get
to the real contest).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA membership wants
for a destination class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>John</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Del
Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to
killing Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Dave..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I never saw
anyone suggesting to do away with the Masters class.. I have thought of
another restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require a specific
designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an aircraft in your
stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to switch to those type of
planes or live with the self imposed handicap. Granted, some of the best can
make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers but when needing the 1 point
advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it does drive the contestants to
seek the best sled that works for them. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>A good friend pointed out
something I had lost sight of once. He acquired a newer designed
airplane to his stable that performed the maneuvers he was flying so
much easier. The design choice alone was raising his scores by almost 1
point per maneuver. With only a little bit of practice with new plane. He
never appreciated the handicap he self imposed until having better
equipment. Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a digital do I
own.. How far behind am I? LOL. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
Del</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 02, 2008
7:33 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
I’ve never advocated doing away with the Master’s class. I only suggested
adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly Master’s as a
separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be required to
advance to the FAI class unless they chose to do so. Seems to me like it
solves several problems. It allows a CD to have more flexibility in
arranging flight lines, a larger pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates
the need for NSRCA (or others) to come up with a new schedule periodically
for the Masters Class. I don’t think there is any difference in the
difficulty level of the P schedule and the Masters schedule today and
would not require any greater skill level than Masters does today IMO.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave
Burton<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Del Rykert
[mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01,
2008 7:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi
Dave</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that
question. Not all people that advance through the AMA classes have
the desire or deep pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level.
Some Master fliers in the past have told me the time commitment is high to
be competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can accept. That may be the
biggest reason. Not certain. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">But
they do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if told
they had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to FAI some
would choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are willing to
commit to play. Some drop out after making it to intermediate. Others
after reaching advanced. Some have stayed and still fly those classes but
real! ize the y don't have the time, desire, money, to move up and be
challenging or at least make a decent showing they can accept for
themselves. I believe the competitive factor varies with us all and what
we are willing to commit to fly
pattern. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why they
are happy to fly Masters.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday,
February 01, 2008 6:10 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
what’s the difference between ” FAI type” schedules and “Masters
schedules”? You are correct about previous proposals not being accepted.
I have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the P schedule
and it was defeated both times. Won’t do that again, but I never
understood the opposition to it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Del Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So
it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it has
been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want to fly
FAI type schedules. It has been voted on with surveys and
discussed on this list in the past to not use that approach.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday,
February 01, 2008 11:48 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I believe that FAI rules states that it is
required more than 2 days event to fly F schedule. I am
sure that someone out there is going to be able to find if I am
correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules and the
CD can override this if he announces the change with
time. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I agree that in Masters we should fly the
current P schedule. This will make a natural transition when
moving Masters to F3A. The rules should be changed
to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA
classes. In other worlds, Masters should not be the final
destination as it is now.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal>-------------- Original message --------------
<BR>From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Those
are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules
state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and
International events, and are not designed to be flown at a local
contest. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Tony
Stillman, President</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">www.radiosouthrc.com</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing
List</ns0:PersonName><BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Another
good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better
we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity
but the F always just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for
this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing
I might try it.<BR> From comments I have hear a lot of guys
just don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:
jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date:
Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=ec300100000-01022008><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Problem
with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want
to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand
getting to know 1 sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters
and FAI guys should be able to have a handle on the other class
without much work. Its probably just me, but if FAI were to fly
both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more Masters
class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this
right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the
winning teams at the end of the contest (after F) it would make more
sense to start flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats
time.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B>To:</B> '<ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing
List</ns0:PersonName>'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">There
is a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems
with changing maneuver schedules for Master’s class.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let
Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a
separate class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters
and be completely familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can
judge FAI and be completely familiar with the schedule. Then the
rules committee does not have to come up with a new schedule
periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI. The
schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying
the P schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">OK,
Flame suit on!</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Mark Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing
List</ns0:PersonName><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">For our
“matrix” version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2
contests. The scorer set up a second masters only contest for
the B panel to enter their scores. It worked quite well with
only a little confusion. <BR><BR>It did a great job of picking
the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8. I’m pretty
sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some
variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the
format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano"
<anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> I
suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as be
a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence.
Really like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes
for the scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on how to score
that<BR> One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an
extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round
two masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating through the entire
class. It seems like the time required would work out the same
because the group had two less pilots but again lot of objectivity (
conscious and unconscious ) required especially as the contest end
grew near. <BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Date:
Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From:
atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to agree with
Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4 years back
at our district championships with the masters class. We had
17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7
in advanced. So getting any judging at all would have required
heavily using the Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR,
heavily burdening the few Advanced guys...and sitting through 17
masters flights is a looooong sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer
judging scenario. Given the options, it worked very well.
But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it
work well. We ! used pe e! r judgi ng for 4 of the 6 rounds.
Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5
judges on each line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7
pilots not judging at any given time. This allowed the person
before and after each flight some time to prep and decompress before
having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start over on the
second line.<BR><BR>It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to
mention that unless you completely randomly resort the flight line
each round, the pilot will be judged but the same group...or maybe
more importantly NOT judged by the same group each round.<BR><BR>It
worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were
presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries.
<BR><BR>On a related note... A better solution was tried
a few years later when we had similar numbers (16 masters
pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B.
we still used FAI and Advanced j! udges,! but we were
also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We did
4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each group and
combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a “Finalists” group
(with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group for the
bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more workable, and I
think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46 PM,
"Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach
without too much regard for political correctness
*****<BR> <BR>I don’t think peer judging works. I don’t
think it sends the right message about problem solving or achieving
a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the
right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of
peer judging). <BR> <BR>The #1 component that must be
correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges see and subtract
about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the same
downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if one judge is off
from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff
should probably be in place for this to! work l ike: ! large n
umber of judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest
caliber of honor, integrity, and judge-education is required by all
competitors to make this work. <BR> <BR>I witnessed this
as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched the
flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would
chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> This
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<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January
31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a chance to read the
current K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest. The
article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI pilots.
Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could keep
your objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did it work out?
Sound interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who
know the FAI rules and the sequence.<BR> Could this be a
solution for the overs! ized Ma sters class? Obvious drawbacks too,
but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Helping
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