[From nobody Sun Feb 3 07:54:12 2008 From: "Gordon Anderson" <GAA@owt.com> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters? Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 16:44:40 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/mixed; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25836_1202057608_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25836_1202057608_1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C86640.EB94D980" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C86640.EB94D980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree with Master flying the FAI P schedule. I think we should let = the membership vote on this issue and implement what the majority want. =20 --Gordon _____ =20 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of vicenterc@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:18 AM To: johnfuqua@embarqmail.com; NSRCA Mailing List; 'NSRCA Mailing List' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters? I think the idea is that the destination class (if we changed to = FAI-F3A) will fly the F-Schedule also. I see very strong advantages from judging = point of view. Both classes Masters and FAI-F3A will know the P schedule really = well since both are flying the same maneuvers. I expect that the judging = level is going to be improved. Yes, the Masters pilots will need to learn the F-Schedule. Finally, I think more professional pilots will be willing = to participate in local contests because we will have more competition at = the FAI-F3A level. I think if we do this could be fun that is the general agreement. =20 Regards, =20 -- Vicente "Vince" Bortone =20 -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: "John Fuqua" <johnfuqua@embarqmail.com>=20 I have been following this discussion with some relutance to jump in. = As a current Masters pilot and old time F3A flyer I to once pushed to have = the Master schedule be the P schedule. But you guys need to look at what FAI has = done to the P schedule. Here is link to the F3A rules. http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4 =20 FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 including a non scored takeoff = and landing. AMA Master is 23 including a scored takeoff and landing. =20 =20 Going to FAI would certainly speed things up (which is what FAI intended = for large contests like WC to speed up the prelims and get to the real = contest). =20 Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA membership wants for a destination = class. =20 John _____ =20 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del = Rykert Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14 AM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters? =20 Hi Dave.. =20 I never saw anyone suggesting to do away with the Masters class.. I have = thought of another restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require a = specific designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an aircraft in = your stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to switch to those = type of planes or live with the self imposed handicap. Granted, some of the best = can make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers but when needing the 1 point = advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it does drive the contestants to seek the = best sled that works for them.=20 =20 A good friend pointed out something I had lost sight of once. He = acquired a newer designed airplane to his stable that performed the maneuvers he = was flying so much easier. The design choice alone was raising his scores by almost = 1 point per maneuver. With only a little bit of practice with new plane. He = never appreciated the handicap he self imposed until having better equipment. = Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a digital do I own.. How far behind = am I? LOL. =20 =20 Del=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Burton <mailto:burtona@atmc.net> =20 To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us> =20 Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals? Del, I=12ve never advocated doing away with the Master=12s class. I only = suggested adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly Master=12s as = a separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be required to advance to = the FAI class unless they chose to do so. Seems to me like it solves several = problems. It allows a CD to have more flexibility in arranging flight lines, a = larger pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates the need for NSRCA (or others) to = come up with a new schedule periodically for the Masters Class. I don=12t think = there is any difference in the difficulty level of the P schedule and the Masters schedule today and would not require any greater skill level than = Masters does today IMO.=20 Dave Burton =20 From: Del Rykert [mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com]=20 Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09 PM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals? =20 Hi Dave =20 I'm not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that question. = Not all people that advance through the AMA classes have the desire or deep = pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level. Some Master fliers in the = past have told me the time commitment is high to be competitive in FAI class. = Higher than they can accept. That may be the biggest reason. Not certain. But they = do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if told they had to = move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to FAI some would choose to = leave. I see it as part of the dues some are willing to commit to play. Some drop = out after making it to intermediate. Others after reaching advanced. Some = have stayed and still fly those classes but real! ize the y don't have the = time, desire, money, to move up and be challenging or at least make a decent = showing they can accept for themselves. I believe the competitive factor varies = with us all and what we are willing to commit to fly pattern. =20 =20 I'm even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why they are = happy to fly Masters. =20 =20 Del ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Burton <mailto:burtona@atmc.net> =20 To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us> =20 Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals? =20 Del, what=12s the difference between =14 FAI type=14 schedules and = =13Masters schedules=14? You are correct about previous proposals not being = accepted. I have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the P schedule and it = was defeated both times. Won=12t do that again, but I never understood the = opposition to it. =20 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del = Rykert Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24 PM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals? =20 So it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it = has been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI = type schedules. It has been voted on with surveys and discussed on this list = in the past to not use that approach.=20 =20 Del=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: vicenterc@comcast.net=20 To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us> =20 Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals? =20 I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days = event to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going to be able to = find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules and the CD can override this if he announces the change with time. =20 =20 I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule. This will = make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The rules should be = changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA classes. In other = worlds, Masters should not be the final destination as it is now. =20 -- Vicente "Vince" Bortone =20 -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com>=20 Those are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules = state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and = are not designed to be flown at a local contest. =20 =20 =20 Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com _____ =20 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony = Romano Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36 AM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals? =20 Another good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the = better we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the = F always just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn = it. Now if everyone promises no laughing I might try it. From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with = rollers. =20 Anthony _____ =20 From: jshulman@cfl.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee? Problem with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want = to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1 = sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a = handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if FAI were = to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more Masters class = this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this right? And since = now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at the end of the = contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F locally so it's not = a shock come Nats time. Regards, Jason www.jasonshulman.com www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Dave = Burton Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53 PM To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee? There is a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems = with changing maneuver schedules for Master=12s class. Let Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate = class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely = familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar = with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a = new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P = schedule should not be any problem for masters class flyers. OK, Flame suit on! =20 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mark = Atwood Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56 PM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee? =20 For our =13matrix=14 version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively = ran 2 contests. The scorer set up a second masters only contest for the B = panel to enter their scores. It worked quite well with only a little confusion. = It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the = top 8. I=12m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some variance...but I think that=12s true regardless of the format. -Mark On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote: I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as be = a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really = like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer. = Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in = Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge and = don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time required would = work out the same because the group had two less pilots but again lot of = objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as the contest end = grew near.=20 =20 Anthony _____ =20 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500 From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee? Anthony, I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about = 4 years back at our district championships with the masters class. We had 17 = pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced. So = getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the Intermediate = and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few Advanced = guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong sentence. So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked very = well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work well. = We ! used pe e! r judgi ng for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight lines, with a = rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high and low by maneuver = leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This allowed the person before = and after each flight some time to prep and decompress before having to jump = in the chair for 5 flights and then start over on the second line. It=12s a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you = completely randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but = the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group each = round. It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were = presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries. =20 On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later when = we had similar numbers (16 masters pilots) We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and = Advanced j! udges,! but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice = versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each group and = combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a =13Finalists=14 group (with the = other 8 judging and flying in their own group for the bottom 8 spots.) This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the = long run. -Mark =20 On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote: Hey Anthony, =20 **** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for political correctness ***** =20 I don=12t think peer judging works. I don=12t think it sends the right = message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver = for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the right = mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows like = Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging). =20 =20 The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all = pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see = the same downgrades. The situation doesn=12t compute if one judge is off from = the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should probably be in = place for this to! work l ike: ! large n umber of judges, drop high score, drop = low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and judge-education = is required by all competitors to make this work. =20 =20 I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched = the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose = not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.=20 =20 Thanks, Jim W. =20 =20 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, includ! ing any = attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential = and propriet! ary inf ormation. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient(s), = please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the = original message.=20 _____ =20 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us] <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d> On Behalf Of Anthony = Romano Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44 PM To: nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee? Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of = the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could = keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did it work out? Sound = interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and = the sequence. Could this be a solution for the overs! ized Ma sters class? Obvious = drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought. =20 Anthony =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we = give. Learn more. = <http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join> <http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join>=20 _____ =20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion =20 =20 _____ =20 Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we = give. Learn more. = <http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join> <http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join>=20 _____ =20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion =20 =20 _____ =20 Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn <http://biggestloser.msn.com/> more. _____ =20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ =20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ =20 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C86640.EB94D980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:ns0 = =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3243" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D171054216-03022008><FONT=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff>I disagree with Master flying the = FAI P=20 schedule. I think we should let the membership vote on this issue and = implement=20 what the majority want.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D171054216-03022008><FONT=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D171054216-03022008><FONT=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff>--Gordon</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> = nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us=20 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us] <B>On Behalf Of=20 </B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:18 = AM<BR><B>To:</B> johnfuqua@embarqmail.com; NSRCA Mailing List; 'NSRCA = Mailing=20 List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing = Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>I think the idea is that the destination class (if we changed to = FAI-F3A)=20 will fly the F-Schedule also.&nbsp; I see very strong advantages from = judging=20 point of view.&nbsp; Both classes Masters and FAI-F3A will know the P = schedule=20 really well since both are flying the same maneuvers.&nbsp; I expect = that the=20 judging level is going to be improved.&nbsp; Yes, the&nbsp;Masters = pilots will=20 need to learn&nbsp;the F-Schedule.&nbsp; Finally, I think more = professional=20 pilots will be willing to participate in local contests because we will = have=20 more competition at the FAI-F3A level.&nbsp; I think if we do this = could&nbsp;be=20 fun that is the general agreement.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV class=3Dsignature id=3Dsignature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" = Bortone</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px = solid">--------------=20 Original message -------------- <BR>From: "John Fuqua"=20 &lt;johnfuqua@embarqmail.com&gt; <BR> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3243" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE>v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } </STYLE> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Calibri; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @font-face { font-family: Verdana; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New = Roman","serif" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New = Roman","serif" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New = Roman","serif" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } P { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman","serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: = auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } P.ecmsochpdefault { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman","serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: = auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: ecmsochpdefault } LI.ecmsochpdefault { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman","serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: = auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: ecmsochpdefault } DIV.ecmsochpdefault { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman","serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: = auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: ecmsochpdefault } P.ecmsochpdefault1 { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman","serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: = auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: ecmsochpdefault1 } LI.ecmsochpdefault1 { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman","serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: = auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: ecmsochpdefault1 } DIV.ecmsochpdefault1 { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman","serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: = auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: ecmsochpdefault1 } SPAN.EmailStyle20 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: = personal } SPAN.ec300100000-01022008 { mso-style-name: ec300100000-01022008 } SPAN.EmailStyle22 { COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: = personal } SPAN.EmailStyle23 { COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: = personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I have been following this discussion with = some relutance=20 to jump in.&nbsp; As a current Masters pilot and old time F3A flyer I = to once=20 pushed to have the Master schedule be the P schedule.&nbsp; But you = guys need=20 to look at what FAI has done to the P schedule.&nbsp; Here is link to = the F3A=20 rules.&nbsp; <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4">http://www.fai.or= g/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</A>&nbsp;=20 </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 = including a non=20 scored takeoff and landing.&nbsp;&nbsp; AMA Master is 23 including a = scored=20 takeoff and landing.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Going to FAI would certainly speed things up = (which is=20 what FAI intended for large contests like WC to speed up the prelims = and get=20 to the real contest).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA = membership&nbsp;wants for=20 a destination class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D791490514-03022008><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>John</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> = nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org=20 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of = </B>Del=20 Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B> = NSRCA=20 Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic = to=20 killing Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi = Dave..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I never&nbsp;saw=20 anyone&nbsp;suggesting to do away with the Masters class.. I have = thought of=20 another restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require a = specific=20 designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an aircraft in = your=20 stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to switch to those = type of=20 planes or live with the self imposed handicap. Granted, some of the = best can=20 make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers but when needing the 1 point = advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it does drive = the&nbsp;contestants to=20 seek the best sled that works for them. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>A good friend pointed = out something=20 I had lost sight of once.&nbsp; He acquired a newer designed airplane = to his=20 stable that&nbsp;performed the maneuvers he was flying so much easier. = The=20 design choice alone was raising his scores by almost 1 point per = maneuver.=20 With only a little bit of practice with new plane. He never = appreciated the=20 handicap he self imposed until&nbsp;having better equipment. Heck.. I = still=20 have coreless servos and not a digital do I own..&nbsp; How far behind = am I?=20 LOL. &nbsp;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 Del</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dburtona@atmc.net href=3D"mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave = Burton</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 title=3Dnsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us=20 href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing = List'</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 02, = 2008 7:33=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] F at=20 locals?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV class=3DSection1> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,=20 I=12ve never advocated doing away with the Master=12s class. I only = suggested=20 adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly Master=12s = as a=20 separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be required = to=20 advance to the FAI class unless they chose to do so. Seems to me = like it=20 solves several problems. It allows a CD to have more flexibility in=20 arranging flight lines, a larger pool of knowledgeable judges, = eliminates=20 the need for NSRCA (or others) to come up with a new schedule = periodically=20 for the Masters Class. I don=12t think there is any difference in = the=20 difficulty level of the P schedule and the Masters schedule today = and would=20 not require any greater skill level than Masters does today IMO.=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave=20 Burton<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: = #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: = medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Del = Rykert=20 [mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February = 01,=20 2008 7:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi=20 Dave</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm=20 not&nbsp;trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that=20 question.&nbsp;Not all people that advance through the AMA classes = have the=20 desire or deep pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level. = Some=20 Master fliers in the past have told me the time commitment is high = to be=20 competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can accept. That may be = the=20 biggest reason. Not certain.&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">But=20 they do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if = told=20 they had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to FAI = some=20 would choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are willing = to=20 commit to play. Some drop out after making it to intermediate. = Others after=20 reaching advanced. Some have stayed and still fly those classes but = real!=20 ize the y don't have the time, desire, money, to move up and be = challenging=20 or at least make a decent showing they can accept for themselves. I = believe=20 the competitive factor varies with us all and what we are willing to = commit=20 to fly pattern.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">&nbsp;</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm=20 even&nbsp;suspect their&nbsp;are other issues that escape us and why = they=20 are happy&nbsp;to fly Masters.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">&nbsp;</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 Del</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: = medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt = 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: = medium none"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- = Original=20 Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20 title=3Dburtona@atmc.net href=3D"mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave = Burton</A>=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20 title=3Dnsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us=20 href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing = List'</A>=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> = Friday,=20 February 01, 2008 6:10 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:=20 [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,=20 what=12s the difference between =14 FAI type=14 schedules and = =13Masters=20 schedules=14? You are correct about previous proposals not being = accepted. I=20 have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the P = schedule and=20 it was defeated both times. Won=12t do that again, but I never = understood=20 the opposition to it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; = BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; = BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion= -bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>=20 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of = </B>Del=20 Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24 = PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20 NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at=20 locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">So=20 it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as = it has=20 been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want = to fly=20 FAI type schedules.&nbsp; It has been voted on with surveys and = discussed=20 on this list in the past to not use that approach.=20 </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">&nbsp;</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 Del </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; = BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: = 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; = BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----=20 Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A = title=3Dvicenterc@comcast.net=20 href=3D"mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A = title=3Dnsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us=20 href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing = List</A>=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> = Friday,=20 February 01, 2008 11:48 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> = Re:=20 [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal>I believe that&nbsp;FAI rules states that = it is=20 required more than 2 days event to fly F schedule.&nbsp;&nbsp;I = am sure=20 that someone out there is going to be able to find if I am = correct or=20 not.&nbsp;&nbsp;Of course, we can use the AMA rules and the CD = can=20 override this if he announces the change with=20 time.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal>I agree that in Masters we = should&nbsp;fly&nbsp;the=20 current P schedule.&nbsp; This will make a natural transition = when=20 moving&nbsp;Masters to F3A.&nbsp; The rules should be changed=20 to&nbsp;make the F3A class the final destination of&nbsp;AMA=20 classes.&nbsp; In other worlds,&nbsp; Masters should not be the = final=20 destination as it is now.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" = Bortone<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; = BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; = MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; = BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: = medium none"> <P class=3DMsoNormal>-------------- Original message = --------------=20 <BR>From: "Tony" &lt;tony@radiosouthrc.com&gt; <o:p></o:p></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Those=20 are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI.&nbsp; The FAI = rules=20 state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and = International=20 events, and are not designed to be flown at a local = contest.&nbsp;=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Tony=20 Stillman, President</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Radio=20 South, Inc.</SPAN><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: = navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">139=20 Altama Connector, </SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'"><ns0:address><ns0:Street><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy">Box</SPAN></ns0:Street><SPAN = style=3D"COLOR: navy">=20 322</SPAN></ns0:address></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'"><ns0:place><ns0:City><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy">Brunswick</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy">, </SPAN><ns0:State><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy">GA</SPAN></ns0:State><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy">&nbsp; </SPAN><ns0:PostalCode><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: = navy">31525</SPAN></ns0:PostalCode></ns0:place></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">1-800-962-7802</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">www.radiosouthrc.com</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> = nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org=20 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf = Of=20 </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 = 8:36=20 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing=20 List</ns0:PersonName><BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] F = at=20 locals?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Another=20 good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the = better=20 we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal = mediocrity but=20 the F always&nbsp;just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals = for this=20 year will be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing = I might=20 try it.<BR>&nbsp;From comments I have hear a lot of guys just = don't=20 want to deal with = rollers.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Anthony<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:=20 jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To: = nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date:=20 Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: = [NSRCA-discussion]=20 Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3Dec300100000-01022008><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Problem=20 with that is that we're finding that&nbsp;enough FAI guys = don't want=20 to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI-&nbsp;P classes?&nbsp;I = understand=20 getting to know&nbsp;1 sequence is easier to judge, but the = Masters=20 and FAI guys should be able to have a handle on the other = class=20 without much work.&nbsp;Its probably just me, but if FAI were = to fly=20 both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more = Masters=20 class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is = this=20 right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the = winning=20 teams at the end of the contest (after F) it would make more = sense to=20 start flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats=20 time.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.s= hulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original=20 Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> = nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org=20 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf = Of=20 </B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 = 6:53=20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> '<ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing=20 List</ns0:PersonName>'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion]=20 Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'">There=20 is &nbsp;a way to solve the peer judging and several other = problems=20 with changing maneuver schedules for Master=12s = class.</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let=20 Masters class fly the most current FAI &nbsp;P schedule as a = separate=20 class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters = and be=20 completely familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can = judge FAI=20 and be completely familiar with the schedule. Then the rules = committee=20 does not have to come up with a new schedule periodically as = it=20 changes every other year just like FAI. The schedules (P &amp; = Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P schedule = should=20 not be any problem for masters class flyers.</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'">OK,=20 Flame suit on!</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Calibri','sans-serif'">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; = BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; = BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> = nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org=20 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf = Of=20 </B>Mark Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 = 3:56=20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing=20 List</ns0:PersonName><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion]=20 Judgeing by commitee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'">For our=20 =13matrix=14 version, the A&amp; B masters groups, we = effectively ran 2=20 contests. &nbsp;The scorer set up a second masters only = contest for=20 the B panel to enter their scores. &nbsp;It worked quite well = with=20 only a little confusion. &nbsp;<BR><BR>It did a great job of = picking=20 the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8. &nbsp;I=12m = pretty sure=20 you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some = variance...but I=20 think that=12s true regardless of the = format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On=20 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" = &lt;anthonyr105@hotmail.com&gt;=20 wrote:</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;I=20 suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well = as be a=20 logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the = sequence.=20 Really like the matrix system but not sure how much work that = makes=20 for the scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on how to score=20 that<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;One idea that was kicked around in D1 was = fly an=20 extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each = round two=20 masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating through the entire = class.=20 It seems like the time required would work out the same = because the=20 group had two less pilots but again lot of objectivity ( = conscious and=20 unconscious ) required especially as the contest end grew = near.=20 <BR>&nbsp;<BR>Anthony</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D3> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Date: Thu,=20 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From: = atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To:=20 nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;=20 nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject: Re: = [NSRCA-discussion]=20 Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to agree = with Jim,=20 but for different reasons. &nbsp;We did this about 4 years = back at our=20 district championships with the masters class. &nbsp;We had 17 = pilots=20 in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in = advanced.=20 &nbsp;So getting any judging at all would have required = heavily using=20 the Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily = burdening=20 the few Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights = is a=20 looooong sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario. = &nbsp;Given the options, it worked very well. &nbsp;But it = requires=20 some serious juggling to even try and make it work well. = &nbsp;We !=20 used pe e! r judgi ng for 4 of the 6 rounds. &nbsp;Two flight = lines,=20 with a rolling panel of judges. &nbsp;5 judges on each line, = tossed=20 high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any = given=20 time. &nbsp;This allowed the person before and after each = flight some=20 time to prep and decompress before having to jump in the chair = for 5=20 flights and then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>It=12s = a VERY=20 VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you = completely=20 randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be = judged=20 but the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by = the same=20 group each round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it was messy. &nbsp;I = would=20 only do it again if we were presented with the same grossly = offset=20 numbers of entries. &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR><BR>On a related note... A = better=20 solution was tried a few years later when we had similar = numbers (16=20 masters pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and = B.=20 &nbsp;&nbsp;we still used FAI and Advanced j! udges,! but we = were also=20 able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. &nbsp;We = did 4=20 rounds for each group. &nbsp;Took the top 4 from each group = and=20 combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a = =13Finalists=14 group=20 (with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group for = the bottom=20 8 spots.)<BR><BR>&nbsp;This was MUCH more workable, and I = think netted=20 a fairer event in the long=20 run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 = 2:46 PM,=20 "Woodward, Jim" &lt;jim.woodward@baesystems.com&gt; = wrote:</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hey=20 Anthony,<BR>&nbsp;<BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less = approach=20 without too much regard for political correctness = *****<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I=20 don=12t think peer judging works. &nbsp;I don=12t think it = sends the right=20 message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate = score per=20 maneuver for each pilot. &nbsp;&nbsp;Psychology 101 would = predict that=20 it does not foster the right mindset or circumstances for a=20 competitive environment (Reality TV shows like Survivor are = based on=20 one form or another of peer judging). &nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;<BR>The = #1=20 component that must be correct for it to work is that all = pilot/judges=20 see and subtract about the exact same number of points per = maneuver=20 see the same downgrades. &nbsp;The situation doesn=12t compute = if one=20 judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. = &nbsp;A bunch=20 of stuff should probably be in place for this to! work l ike: = &nbsp;!=20 large n umber of judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. = The=20 highest caliber of honor, integrity, and judge-education is = required=20 by all competitors to make this work. &nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I = witnessed=20 this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. &nbsp;I = watched the=20 flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I = would chose=20 not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.=20 <BR>&nbsp;<BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">Jim=20 W.<BR>&nbsp;<BR></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR>&nbsp;<BR></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Arial','sans-serif'">CONFIDENTIALITY=20 NOTICE:</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> = This=20 e-mail message, includ! ing any attachments, is for the sole = use of=20 the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and = propriet!=20 ary inf ormation. &nbsp;Any unauthorized review, use, = disclosure or=20 distribution is prohibited. &nbsp;If you are not the intended=20 recipient(s), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and = destroy=20 all copies of the original message. </SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> = nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-dis= cussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>=20 <B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, = January=20 31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20 nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B>Subject:</B> = [NSRCA-discussion]=20 Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a chance to read the = current=20 K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest. The article=20 mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI pilots. Could = someone=20 please provide details. Do you think you could keep your = objectivity?=20 ! For tho se that were there how did it work out? Sound = interesting=20 because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI = rules=20 and the sequence.<BR>&nbsp;Could this be a solution for the = overs!=20 ized Ma sters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to = inspire some=20 = thought.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Anthony<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o= :p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Helping=20 your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, = we give.=20 Learn more. <A=20 = href=3D"http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join"= =20 = target=3D_blank>&lt;http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_h= otmail_join&gt;</A>=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"95%" SIZE=3D3> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier = New'">_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion= =20 mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"=20 = target=3D_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<= /A></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D3> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Helping=20 your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.&nbsp;You = IM, we=20 give. Learn more. <A=20 = href=3D"http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join"= =20 = target=3D_blank>&lt;http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_h= otmail_join&gt;</A>=20 </SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"95%" SIZE=3D3> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier = New'">_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion= =20 mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"=20 = target=3D_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<= /A></SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Shed those=20 extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! <A=20 href=3D"http://biggestloser.msn.com/" target=3D_new>Learn=20 more.</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </DIV> <P=20 = class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRC= A-discussion=20 mailing=20 = list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailma= n/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter> <HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </DIV> <P=20 = class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRC= A-discussion=20 mailing=20 = list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailma= n/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P> <HR> = <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussio= n=20 mailing=20 = list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailma= n/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C86640.EB94D980-- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25836_1202057608_1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25836_1202057608_1-- ]