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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I have been following this discussion with some relutance
to jump in. As a current Masters pilot and old time F3A flyer I to once
pushed to have the Master schedule be the P schedule. But you guys need to
look at what FAI has done to the P schedule. Here is link to the F3A
rules. <A
href="http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4">http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4</A>
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 including a non
scored takeoff and landing. AMA Master is 23 including a scored
takeoff and landing. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Going to FAI would certainly speed things up (which is what
FAI intended for large contests like WC to speed up the prelims and get to the
real contest).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA membership wants for a
destination class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=791490514-03022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>John</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Del
Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing
Masters?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Dave..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I never saw
anyone suggesting to do away with the Masters class.. I have thought of
another restriction/factor. Some of the FAI maneuvers require a specific
designed plane to do them well. If you don't have such an aircraft in your
stable you can be looking at a prohibitive change to switch to those type of
planes or live with the self imposed handicap. Granted, some of the best can
make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers but when needing the 1 point advantage
in a high K-Factor maneuver it does drive the contestants to seek the best
sled that works for them. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>A good friend pointed out something I
had lost sight of once. He acquired a newer designed airplane to his
stable that performed the maneuvers he was flying so much easier. The
design choice alone was raising his scores by almost 1 point per maneuver. With
only a little bit of practice with new plane. He never appreciated the handicap
he self imposed until having better equipment. Heck.. I still have coreless
servos and not a digital do I own.. How far behind am I? LOL.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
Del</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:33
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
I’ve never advocated doing away with the Master’s class. I only suggested
adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule and fly Master’s as a
separate class as we do today. Masters pilots would not be required to advance
to the FAI class unless they chose to do so. Seems to me like it solves
several problems. It allows a CD to have more flexibility in arranging flight
lines, a larger pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates the need for NSRCA
(or others) to come up with a new schedule periodically for the Masters Class.
I don’t think there is any difference in the difficulty level of the P
schedule and the Masters schedule today and would not require any greater
skill level than Masters does today IMO. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave
Burton<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Del Rykert
[mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008
7:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi
Dave</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that
question. Not all people that advance through the AMA classes have the
desire or deep pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level. Some
Master fliers in the past have told me the time commitment is high to be
competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can accept. That may be the biggest
reason. Not certain. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">But
they do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if told they
had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to FAI some would
choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are willing to commit to
play. Some drop out after making it to intermediate. Others after reaching
advanced. Some have stayed and still fly those classes but realize they don't
have the time, desire, money, to move up and be challenging or at least make a
decent showing they can accept for themselves. I believe the competitive
factor varies with us all and what we are willing to commit to fly
pattern. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why they are
happy to fly Masters.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday, February
01, 2008 6:10 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Del,
what’s the difference between ” FAI type” schedules and “Masters schedules”?
You are correct about previous proposals not being accepted. I have
submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the P schedule and it was
defeated both times. Won’t do that again, but I never understood the
opposition to it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Del
Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So
it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it has been
clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI type
schedules. It has been voted on with surveys and discussed on this
list in the past to not use that approach. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Del </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday,
February 01, 2008 11:48 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I believe that FAI rules states that it is
required more than 2 days event to fly F schedule. I am sure
that someone out there is going to be able to find if I am correct or
not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules and the CD can
override this if he announces the change with
time. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I agree that in Masters we should fly the
current P schedule. This will make a natural transition when
moving Masters to F3A. The rules should be changed to make
the F3A class the final destination of AMA classes. In other
worlds, Masters should not be the final destination as it is
now.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal>-------------- Original message --------------
<BR>From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Those
are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules
state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and International
events, and are not designed to be flown at a local contest.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Tony
Stillman, President</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Radio
South, Inc.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">139
Altama Connector, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><ns0:address><ns0:Street><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">Box</SPAN></ns0:Street><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">
322</SPAN></ns0:address></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><ns0:place><ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">Brunswick</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">, </SPAN><ns0:State><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">GA</SPAN></ns0:State><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"> </SPAN><ns0:PostalCode><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">31525</SPAN></ns0:PostalCode></ns0:place></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">1-800-962-7802</SPAN><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing
List</ns0:PersonName><BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Another good
point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better we all
get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F
always just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will
be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing I might try
it.<BR> From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to
deal with rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
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</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:
jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date:
Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=ec300100000-01022008><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Problem
with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to
fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to
know 1 sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys
should be able to have a handle on the other class without much
work. Its probably just me, but if FAI were to fly both P and F,
then having "Masters" fly P might be a more Masters class this way. Then
again, I may be off in left field, or is this right? And since now both
the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at the end of the
contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F locally so
it's not a shock come Nats time.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B>To:</B> '<ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing
List</ns0:PersonName>'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">There
is a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with
changing maneuver schedules for Master’s class.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let
Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate
class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be
completely familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI
and be completely familiar with the schedule. Then the rules committee
does not have to come up with a new schedule periodically as it changes
every other year just like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so
close in difficulty that flying the P schedule should not be any problem
for masters class flyers.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">OK,
Flame suit on!</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Mark Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing
List</ns0:PersonName><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing
by commitee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">For our
“matrix” version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2
contests. The scorer set up a second masters only contest for the
B panel to enter their scores. It worked quite well with only a
little confusion. <BR><BR>It did a great job of picking the top 5
guys and getting them into the top 8. I’m pretty sure you could
argue that 7-12th place might have had some variance...but I think
that’s true regardless of the format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08
3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com>
wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> I
suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as be a
logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really
like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the
scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that<BR> One
idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in Masters to
generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge and
don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time
required would work out the same because the group had two less pilots
but again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required
especially as the contest end grew near.
<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Date: Thu,
31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to agree with Jim,
but for different reasons. We did this about 4 years back at our
district championships with the masters class. We had 17 pilots in
masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using
the Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening
the few Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a
looooong sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario.
Given the options, it worked very well. But it requires some
serious juggling to even try and make it work well. We ! used pe
er judging for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight lines, with a rolling
panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high and low by
maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This
allowed the person before and after each flight some time to prep and
decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then
start over on the second line.<BR><BR>It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy
process, not to mention that unless you completely randomly resort the
flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but the same group...or
maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group each
round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it
again if we were presented with the same grossly offset numbers of
entries. <BR><BR>On a related note... A better solution was
tried a few years later when we had similar numbers (16 masters
pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we
still used FAI and Advanced j! udges, but we were also able to sprinkle
in B judges for A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds for each group.
Took the top 4 from each group and combined them and they flew the
last 2 rounds as a “Finalists” group (with the other 8 judging and
flying in their own group for the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was
MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46 PM,
"Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach
without too much regard for political correctness *****<BR> <BR>I
don’t think peer judging works. I don’t think it sends the right
message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per
maneuver for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that
it does not foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive
environment (Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or
another of peer judging). <BR> <BR>The #1 component that must
be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges see and subtract
about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the same
downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if one judge is off from
the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should
probably be in place for this to! work l ike: large number of
judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of
honor, integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to
make this work. <BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot
watching the FAI contest. I watched the flying and this scenario
VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not to compete in FAI in a
peer judging scenario. <BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">CONFIDENTIALITY
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31,
2008 1:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a chance to read the current
K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned
FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please
provide details. Do you think you could keep your objectivity? ! For tho
se that were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you
would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and the
sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters
class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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