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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I really responded to your term "recreational
competitors". I wonder if there isn't a large majority of
participants that might also be very comfortable with this title?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Would I like to be able to beat Jason? SURE !!!!!,
but I'm also realistic enough to realize that it's probably not going to happen
'til whichever of us reaches the age of 93 first.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Georgie</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jnhiller@earthlink.net href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">J N
Hiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:44
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">OOPS,
I guess my sarcasm was taken seriously. I expect to point out of advanced this
year and am looking forward to flying the 2009 masters sequence (I didn’t like
the current one). I don’t have a problem with masters adopting a previous FAI
schedule, which has been done in the past. What I fear is if this becomes
policy, masters is likely to adopt schedules of ever-increasing difficulty,
beyond what some of us are willing to commit to. I don’t expect to ever fly
masters competitively and would never point out, if it were to be included in
the rules. There are recreational competitors regularly attending local and
regional contests that are unable or unwilling to keep up with the
ever-increasing difficulty necessary to separate the few top-level world-class
competitors competing under common rules. The rules as they presently exist
offer masters as a destination class and allow for a cap in masters class
difficulty more compatible with the majority of the class competitors. Those
desiring a greater challenge can fly FAI at will relative to their personal
compatibility with each new schedule.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">I went
through this many years ago when the IMAC class I was competing in adopted
rolling circles. Yes I could probably learn to stumble my way through it but
the effort, time and risk wasn’t compatible with enjoyment of this hobby /
sport. I will always remember my flying buddies comment one practice day, “I
aint got enough airplanes to learn how to do
that”.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">If
rules are proposed and approved that don’t include revisions to mandatory
advancement that allow flying in a class compatible with an individual’s
personal level of ability and commitment it is likely they will explore other
interests. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">I came
back to pattern competition after about 7 years and have place high flying
classes I could fly comfortably with very low risk and limited practice. I am
about an 80% flier, which I don’t consider exceptional or sandbagging (I wish
raw score averages were posted for major contests). Keep the $%^7 trophies, I
don’t need them. I just want to join in the fun and fly with old and new
friends.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Jim
Hiller<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Kane<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, February 01, 2008 5:39
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">There is an
advancement point system defined in the AMA competition regulations. For
Intermediate and Advanced class, once a pilot earns 100 advancement points
they must move up to the next higher class at the end of the season. 1st
place earns points eqaul to 3 times the number of pilots you beat, 2nd place
earns you 2 times the number of pilots you beat, 3rd place and beyond you earn
1 point for every pilot you beat. For eample, you place 2nd in advanced ahead
of 2 other pilots you would earn 2x2 or 4 points. The first place pilot
in the same contest would earn 9 points. Tracking of points is the
pilot's responsibility. The AMA does not track them, the NSRCA does not track
them. You can read the details in the regulations found here: <A
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Aerobatics.pdf">http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Aerobatics.pdf</A><BR> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Bob
Kane<BR>getterflash@yahoo.com </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: J N
Hiller <jnhiller@earthlink.net><BR>To: NSRCA Mailing List
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008
12:20:45 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=emailstyle23><FONT
face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“Masters not a destination class”
How long can I stay in advanced before dropping out of
pattern?</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=emailstyle23><FONT
face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
Hiller</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=emailstyle23><FONT
face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:48
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I believe
that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days event to fly F
schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going to be able to
find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules
and the CD can override this if he announces the change with
time. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I agree that in
Masters we should fly the current P schedule. This will make a
natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The rules should be
changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA
classes. In other worlds, Masters should not be the final
destination as it is now.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">--<BR>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Those are the very
reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules state that the F
patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and are not
designed to be flown at a local contest. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tony Stillman,
President</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Radio South,
Inc.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">139 Altama Connector,
Box 322</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Brunswick , GA
31525</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1-800-962-7802</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/"
target=_blank>www.radiosouthrc.com</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony Romano<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Another good point
Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I
can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just
scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if
everyone promises no laughing I might try it.<BR> From comments I have
hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:
jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 31
Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><SPAN
class=ec300100000-01022008><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Problem with that is
that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F... so why
hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1 sequence
is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a
handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if
FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more
Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this
right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at
the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F
locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"
target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dave Burton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> ' NSRCA Mailing List
'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">There is a
way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with changing
maneuver schedules for Masters class.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Let Masters
class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class. This
provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely familiar
with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar
with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a
new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI. The
schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P
schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">OK, Flame suit
on!</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Mark Atwood<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">For our matrix
version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The
scorer set up a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their
scores. It worked quite well with only a little confusion.
<BR><BR>It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them
into the top 8. Im pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might
have had some variance...but I think thats true regardless of the
format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano"
<anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR> I
suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as be a
logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really like
the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer. Anyone
have any thoughts on how to score that<BR> One idea that was kicked
around in D1 was fly an extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw
away. Each round two masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating through the
entire class. It seems like the time required would work out the same because
the group had two less pilots but again lot of objectivity ( conscious and
unconscious ) required especially as the contest end grew near.
<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Date: Thu, 31 Jan
2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to
agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4 years
back at our district championships with the masters class. We had 17
pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options,
it worked very well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try
and make it work well. We ! used pe er judging for 4 of the 6 rounds.
Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each
line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any
given time. This allowed the person before and after each flight some
time to prep and decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights
and then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>Its a VERY VERY VERY busy
process, not to mention that unless you completely randomly resort the flight
line each round, the pilot will be judged but the same group...or maybe more
importantly NOT judged by the same group each round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it
was messy. I would only do it again if we were presented with the same
grossly offset numbers of entries. <BR><BR>On a related note... A
better solution was tried a few years later when we had similar numbers (16
masters pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B.
we still used FAI and Advanced j! udges, but we were also able to
sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds for each
group. Took the top 4 from each group and combined them and they flew
the last 2 rounds as a Finalists group (with the other 8 judging and flying in
their own group for the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more
workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46 PM,
"Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 76.2pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too
much regard for political correctness *****<BR> <BR>I dont think peer
judging works. I dont think it sends the right message about problem
solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the right
mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows like
Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging).
<BR> <BR>The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is
that all pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points
per maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesnt compute if
one judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of
stuff should probably be in place for this to! work l ike: large number
of judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor,
integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this
work. <BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI
contest. I watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion
is that I would chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=black
size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=1><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d" target=_blank
rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony
Romano<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday,
January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by
commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a
note on the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a
commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think
you could keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did it work
out? Sound interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know
the FAI rules and the sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the
oversized Masters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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