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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Those are the very reasons that I stopped
flying FAI. The FAI rules state that the F patterns are for Regional, National
and International events, and are not designed to be flown at a local contest.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tony Stillman, President</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>139 Altama Connector, <st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street
w:st="on">Box</st1:Street> 322</st1:address></span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>, <st1:State
w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">31525</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><font
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1-800-962-7802</span></font><font
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 01, 2008
8:36 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Another good point Jason. The more
that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I can fly Masters
or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just scared me off. Maybe
one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no
laughing I might try it.<br>
From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>From: jshulman@cfl.rr.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=ec300100000-01022008><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Problem
with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly
F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to
know 1 sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be
able to have a handle on the other class without much work. Its probably
just me, but if FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters"
fly P might be a more Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left
field, or is this right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the
winning teams at the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to
start flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.</span></font></span><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
www.jasonshulman.com<br>
www.shulmanaviation.com<br>
www.composite-arf.com <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>There is a way
to solve the peer judging and several other problems with changing maneuver
schedules for Master’s class.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Let Masters class
fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class. This provides a
way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely familiar with the
maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar with the
schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a new schedule
periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI. The schedules (P
& Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P schedule should not
be any problem for masters class flyers.</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>OK, Flame suit on!</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008
3:56 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=1 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>For our “matrix” version, the
A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The scorer set up
a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their scores. It
worked quite well with only a little confusion. <br>
<br>
It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8.
I’m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some
variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the format.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com>
wrote:</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=1 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br>
I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as
be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really
like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer.
Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that<br>
One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in
Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge
and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time
required would work out the same because the group had two less pilots but
again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as
the contest end grew near. <br>
<br>
Anthony</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=1 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15
-0500<br>
From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Anthony,<br>
<br>
I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4
years back at our district championships with the masters class. We had
17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong sentence.<br>
<br>
So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked very
well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work
well. We used peer judging for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight lines,
with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high and
low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This
allowed the person before and after each flight some time to prep and
decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start over
on the second line.<br>
<br>
It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you completely
randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but the
same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group each round.<br>
<br>
It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were
presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries. <br>
<br>
On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later when we had
similar numbers (16 masters pilots)<br>
<br>
We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and
Advanced judges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice
versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each
group and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a “Finalists” group
(with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group for the bottom 8
spots.)<br>
<br>
This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the
long run.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hey Anthony,<br>
<br>
**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for
political correctness *****<br>
<br>
I don’t think peer judging works. I don’t think it sends the right
message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver
for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not
foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer
judging). <br>
<br>
The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges
see and subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the
same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if one judge is off from
the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should probably
be in place for this to work like: large number of judges, drop high
score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and
judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work. <br>
<br>
I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched
the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not
to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario. <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
</span></font><font size=1 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim W.<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=1 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008
1:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI
pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could keep your
objectivity? For those that were there how did it work out? Sound interesting
because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and the
sequence.<br>
Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious
drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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