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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Granted it is semantics - but
~~ when I became a CD it was explained to me that regional - by AMA's
intent was a major contest drawing from a large region ( involves crossing
district boundaries ) If the intent is different with your use of regional here
then maybe a different term would be more apropos? By some definition to further
their argument many pattern contests may be regional as far as the pool of
contest that participate. I don't believe that was the intent of the term
regional. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dentdoc007@comcast.net href="mailto:dentdoc007@comcast.net">C.
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 9:28
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Tony, I can respect that..But I think with Contest being
so spread out they DO Qualify as Regional Events. When I go to Florida,
Alabama, Tennessee & further in our Regional Districts these are not
Local. I think Local would be more of a Club contest scenario. For a U.S.
Application.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> Lets face it the current & upcoming F
schedules are getting tougher. I think there is a reason for it. To separate
the growing crop of able flyers. I also know there are Competitors out
there that Like challenges and are willing to grow there RC flying
skills. I know in D3 (Regional area) Most are looking
forward the challenge. To grow a new skill set.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> Masters has a very completive sequence & evenly
equal to the P skill sets to compete with. Lets not take away the growth
so many are happy to see come to our Regional/District Events. To fly Real FAI
stuff!!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> Respectfully
submitted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Tony<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Those are the very
reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules state that the F
patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and are not
designed to be flown at a local contest. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tony Stillman,
President</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Radio South,
Inc.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
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<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">Box</st1:Street>
322</st1:address></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Brunswick</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">, <st1:State
w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">31525</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1-800-962-7802</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">www.radiosouthrc.com</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony Romano<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Another good point Jason. The
more that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I can fly
Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just scared me
off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone
promises no laughing I might try it.<BR> From comments I have hear a lot
of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From: jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38
-0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=ec300100000-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Problem with that is
that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F... so why
hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1 sequence
is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a
handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if
FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more
Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this
right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at
the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F
locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dave Burton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> '<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>'<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">There is a
way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with changing
maneuver schedules for Master’s class.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Let Masters
class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class. This
provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely familiar
with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar
with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a
new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI. The
schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P
schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">OK, Flame suit
on!</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Mark Atwood<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing
by commitee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">For our “matrix” version, the
A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The scorer set
up a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their scores.
It worked quite well with only a little confusion. <BR><BR>It did
a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8.
I’m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some
variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the
format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano"
<anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR> I suspected this
would require super- human objectivity as well as be a logistical nightmare.
However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really like the matrix system but
not sure how much work that makes for the scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on
how to score that<BR> One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly
an extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two
masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems
like the time required would work out the same because the group had two less
pilots but again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required
especially as the contest end grew near.
<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face=Verdana size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15
-0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to
agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4 years
back at our district championships with the masters class. We had 17
pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options,
it worked very well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try
and make it work well. We used peer judging for 4 of the 6 rounds.
Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each
line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any
given time. This allowed the person before and after each flight some
time to prep and decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights
and then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy
process, not to mention that unless you completely randomly resort the flight
line each round, the pilot will be judged but the same group...or maybe more
importantly NOT judged by the same group each round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it
was messy. I would only do it again if we were presented with the same
grossly offset numbers of entries. <BR><BR>On a related note... A
better solution was tried a few years later when we had similar numbers (16
masters pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B.
we still used FAI and Advanced judges, but we were also able to
sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds for each
group. Took the top 4 from each group and combined them and they flew
the last 2 rounds as a “Finalists” group (with the other 8 judging and flying
in their own group for the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more
workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46 PM,
"Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too
much regard for political correctness *****<BR> <BR>I don’t think peer
judging works. I don’t think it sends the right message about problem
solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the right
mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows like
Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging).
<BR> <BR>The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is
that all pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points
per maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if
one judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of
stuff should probably be in place for this to work like: large number of
judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor,
integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this
work. <BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI
contest. I watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion
is that I would chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
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face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
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nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony
Romano<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday,
January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by
commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a
note on the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a
commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think
you could keep your objectivity? For those that were there how did it work
out? Sound interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know
the FAI rules and the sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the
oversized Masters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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