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<DIV><SPAN class=300100000-01022008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Problem with
that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F... so
why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1
sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have
a handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if
FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more
Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this
right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at
the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F
locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT
size=2>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com</FONT>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave
Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'NSRCA
Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">There
is a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with
changing maneuver schedules for Master’s class.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let
Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class.
This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely
familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely
familiar with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up
with a new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI.
The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P
schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">OK,
Flame suit on!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark
Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by
commitee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">For our “matrix”
version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The
scorer set up a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their
scores. It worked quite well with only a little confusion.
<BR><BR>It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them
into the top 8. I’m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might
have had some variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the
format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano"
<anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> I
suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as be a
logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really like
the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer. Anyone
have any thoughts on how to score that<BR> One idea that was kicked
around in D1 was fly an extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw
away. Each round two masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating through the
entire class. It seems like the time required would work out the same because
the group had two less pilots but again lot of objectivity ( conscious and
unconscious ) required especially as the contest end grew near.
<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
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</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Date: Thu, 31 Jan
2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to
agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4 years
back at our district championships with the masters class. We had 17
pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options,
it worked very well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try
and make it work well. We used peer judging for 4 of the 6 rounds.
Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each
line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any
given time. This allowed the person before and after each flight some
time to prep and decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights
and then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy
process, not to mention that unless you completely randomly resort the flight
line each round, the pilot will be judged but the same group...or maybe more
importantly NOT judged by the same group each round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it
was messy. I would only do it again if we were presented with the same
grossly offset numbers of entries. <BR><BR>On a related note... A
better solution was tried a few years later when we had similar numbers (16
masters pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B.
we still used FAI and Advanced judges, but we were also able to
sprinkle in B judges for A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds for each
group. Took the top 4 from each group and combined them and they flew
the last 2 rounds as a “Finalists” group (with the other 8 judging and flying
in their own group for the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more
workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46 PM,
"Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too
much regard for political correctness *****<BR> <BR>I don’t think peer
judging works. I don’t think it sends the right message about problem
solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the right
mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows like
Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging).
<BR> <BR>The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is
that all pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points
per maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if
one judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of
stuff should probably be in place for this to work like: large number of
judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor,
integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this
work. <BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI
contest. I watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion
is that I would chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2008
1:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B> nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Finally got a
chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest.
The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI pilots. Could
someone please provide details. Do you think you could keep your objectivity?
For those that were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you
would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and the
sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class?
Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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