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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I have always felt that throwing away
a high and a low score not only insults the judges but encourages judges
to be number generators in the middle of the road as they question giving a zero
when they feel it was earned but knowing it will be tossed if others didn't see
the error. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>To punish a judge that does a better
job is always going to be the wrong approach. I have repeatedly seen where the
judge giving the lower score as being the problem. I can't ever recall
personally seeing Santa clausing while at a contest. If judging is a bad as some
seem to think they why not have judges certified yearly for all contests. At
least then you will be using people that have proven they knew the rules when
they took their certification. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>seefo@san.rr.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:01
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging by committee?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> For as long as I've been competing there
has always been the problem of judging being uninformed, inaccurate, etc. Not
pointing fingers, it just is what it is whenever you have volunteer
judging.<BR>> <BR>> Personally I think the efforts made by Jason and the
Tangerine people should be applauded, REGARDLESS of whether or not the outcome
is deemed valid. The fact is they tried something new to solve a problem. If it
works, cool. If not, that's ok too. It just eliminates another incorrect choice
at solving the problem. This sort of outside-the-box thinking should be
encouraged. <BR>> <BR>> Having sat through MANY competitions where every
one of my peers sees errors that few, if any judges on the line catch (a certain
TOC pilot's wrong direction snap that only Peter Wessels caught comes to mind),
I think the idea of peer judging has a great deal of merit, even if only as a
case study comparison to standard judging methods. Who better to know what to
look for in a flight than the people flying it? So long as there is a certain
amount of normalization (such as dropping high & low scores) to reduce bias,
I honestly can't think of a reason not to try it. <BR>> <BR>> To a person,
I trust everyone I know at this level of competition to judge accurately and
fairly, regardless of them being my competitor or not.<BR>> <BR>> -Doug
Cronkhite<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ---- Ken Thompson
<</FONT><A href="mailto:kthompson@stx.rr.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kthompson@stx.rr.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>
wrote: <BR>>> I'm sorry Jason, <BR>>> <BR>>> But my comments
have little to do with my respect for you, which I obviously have, it's more
that I have a much different opinion with respect with the comments by Cameron
Smith.<BR>>> Cameron...your reputation precedes you...if you would like to
take this off line, I'd be happy to do so. You are opinionated, that's no
problem, I am also, but to call someone out in our forum, that's not right...So
to quote you...I'm here to say things honestly!!!<BR>>> Let's both say
what's on our mind...to quote you..."nice to see someone with a set" I
have mine, how 'bout you?<BR>>> <BR>>> Ken
Thompson<BR>>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>>> From: JShulman <BR>>> To: NSRCA
Mailing List <BR>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:12
PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Hey guys, I don't
mind Cameron's comments. I haven't exactly had much sleep today, or I should say
this morning, so I might have come off a bit different than usual. I accept his
opinion as being his, and welcome his comments on how to help to improve
judging. Not just for FAI, but for all of pattern.<BR>>>
<BR>>> Regards,<BR>>>
Jason<BR>>> </FONT><A href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>www.jasonshulman.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.shulmanaviation.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>> </FONT><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>www.composite-arf.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> <BR>>> <BR>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf
Of Ken Thompson<BR>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31,
2008 8:06 PM<BR>>> To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> This has got to me a freakin' joke...I
haven't been posting much, but things like this will make me come back to
life!!!<BR>>> <BR>>> I don't believe the
majority would want me to get back on the band wagon with my opinions...this
kind of post is pushing me in that direction...<BR>>>
<BR>>> Ken
Thompson<BR>>> NSRCA
3646<BR>>> AMA
685343<BR>>> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>>> From: C. Smith
<BR>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
<BR>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31,
2008 6:48 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Jim,<BR>>>
<BR>>> I just got home, Sat down
to eat my dinner & read the emails... <BR>>>
<BR>>> When you read this to me
this afternoon it did not make the impression it did when I read
it.....<BR>>> <BR>>>
I am not trying to blow smoke up your skirt please believe me...<BR>>>
<BR>>> It is refreshing to see
someone say things honestly & in such a way.... Too few say what needs to be
said.....<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Jason's response
came across as self serving damage control.. I do not think he comes
across as a sincere person. As a matter of fact he seems very
insecure......<BR>>>
<BR>>> He came back at you by
saying 3 of the 4 believe it WILL work.. But I could have sworn you showed me
emails from Ryan disagreeing with the practice..... I would bet you Joe &
Ryan in public would agree with Jason just to associate them selves with him.. I
call this by many names....Weak, Intellectually Dishonest & self
serving.. <BR>>>
<BR>>> Oh well I just want you
to know Good job-- Nice to see someone with a set.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
From: </FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward,
Jim<BR>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31,
2008 2:47 PM<BR>>> To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Hey Anthony,<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> **** Attempting a
50 words or less approach without too much regard for political correctness
*****<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
I don't think peer judging works. I don't think it sends the right message
about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each
pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the
right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows
like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging).
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> The
#1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges see
and subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the same
downgrades. The situation doesn't compute if one judge is off from the
others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should probably be in
place for this to work like: large number of judges, drop high score, drop
low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and
judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work.
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> I
witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched the
flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not to
compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario. <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Thanks,<BR>>>
<BR>>> Jim W.<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and proprietary
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient(s), please contact the
sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
<BR>>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us] On Behalf
Of Anthony Romano<BR>>> Sent:
Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44
PM<BR>>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Finally got a chance to read
the current K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest. The article
mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please
provide details. Do you think you could keep your objectivity? For those that
were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you would finally be
judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and the
sequence.<BR>>> Could this be a
solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to
inspire some thought.<BR>>>
<BR>>>
Anthony<BR>>>
<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
<BR>>> Helping your favorite cause is
as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
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<BR>>> <BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>
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color=#0000ff size=2>>> </FONT><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
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<BR>>> <BR>>>
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color=#0000ff size=2>>> </FONT><A
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size=2>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> <BR>>
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