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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>So it would be acceptable to you to
drive some away from pattern as it has been clearly stated that some Master
fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI type schedules. It has been voted
on with surveys and discussed on this list in the past to not use that approach.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days
event to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going
to be able to find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use
the AMA rules and the CD can override this if he announces the change with
time. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P
schedule. This will make a natural transition when moving Masters
to F3A. The rules should be changed to make the F3A class the final
destination of AMA classes. In other worlds, Masters should
not be the final destination as it is now.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Tony"
<tony@radiosouthrc.com> <BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Those are the very
reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules state that the F
patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and are not
designed to be flown at a local contest. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tony Stillman,
President</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
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w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">31525</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1-800-962-7802</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">www.radiosouthrc.com</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony Romano<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Another good point
Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it.
I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just
scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now
if everyone promises no laughing I might try it.<BR> From comments I
have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:
jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 31
Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=ec300100000-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Problem with that
is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F... so
why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1
sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to
have a handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just
me, but if FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might
be a more Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or
is this right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the
winning teams at the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense
to start flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats
time.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dave Burton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> '<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>'<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
by committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">There is
a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with
changing maneuver schedules for Master’s class.</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Let Masters
class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class. This
provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely familiar
with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely
familiar with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come
up with a new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like
FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying
the P schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">OK, Flame suit
on!</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Mark Atwood<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">For our “matrix”
version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests.
The scorer set up a second masters only contest for the B panel to
enter their scores. It worked quite well with only a little confusion.
<BR><BR>It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them
into the top 8. I’m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place
might have had some variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the
format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano"
<anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR> I
suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as be a
logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really
like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer.
Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that<BR> One idea that
was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in Masters to generate an
extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating
through the entire class. It seems like the time required would work out the
same because the group had two less pilots but again lot of objectivity (
conscious and unconscious ) required especially as the contest end grew
near. <BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face=Verdana size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Date: Thu, 31 Jan
2008 15:14:15 -0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have
to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4
years back at our district championships with the masters class. We
had 17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in
advanced. So getting any judging at all would have required heavily
using the Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening
the few Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the
options, it worked very well. But it requires some serious juggling to
even try and make it work well. We ! used pe er judging for 4 of the 6
rounds. Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5
judges on each line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not
judging at any given time. This allowed the person before and after
each flight some time to prep and decompress before having to jump in the
chair for 5 flights and then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>It’s a
VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you completely
randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but the
same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group each
round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again
if we were presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries.
<BR><BR>On a related note... A better solution was tried a few
years later when we had similar numbers (16 masters pilots)<BR><BR>We
created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and
Advanced j! udges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and
vice versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from
each group and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a
“Finalists” group (with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group
for the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more workable, and I
think netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46 PM,
"Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without
too much regard for political correctness *****<BR> <BR>I don’t think
peer judging works. I don’t think it sends the right message about
problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each
pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the
right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV
shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging).
<BR> <BR>The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is
that all pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points
per maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if
one judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch
of stuff should probably be in place for this to! work l ike: large
number of judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber
of honor, integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to
make this work. <BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot
watching the FAI contest. I watched the flying and this scenario VERY
close. My opinion is that I would chose not to compete in FAI in a peer
judging scenario. <BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=1><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony
Romano<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday,
January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by
commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a
note on the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a
commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you
think you could keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did
it work out? Sound interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots
who know the FAI rules and the sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution
for the oversized Masters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to
inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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