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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Del, what’s the difference between ” FAI type”
schedules and “Masters schedules”? You are correct about previous
proposals not being accepted. I have submitted a rules change twice for Masters
to fly the P schedule and it was defeated both times. Won’t do that
again, but I never understood the opposition to it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Del
Rykert<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>So it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as
it has been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want to fly
FAI type schedules. It has been voted on with surveys and discussed on
this list in the past to not use that approach. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> Del </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"
title="vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Friday, February 01,
2008 11:48 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I believe that FAI rules states that it is required
more than 2 days event to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out
there is going to be able to find if I am correct or not. Of course,
we can use the AMA rules and the CD can override this if he announces the
change with time. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I agree that in Masters we should fly the current
P schedule. This will make a natural transition when moving Masters
to F3A. The rules should be changed to make the F3A class the final
destination of AMA classes. In other worlds, Masters should
not be the final destination as it is now.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Those are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI
rules state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and International
events, and are not designed to be flown at a local contest. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Tony Stillman, President</span><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Radio South, Inc.</span><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>139 Altama Connector, </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><ns0:address><ns0:Street><span
style='color:navy'>Box</span></ns0:Street><span style='color:navy'> 322</span></ns0:address></span><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><ns0:place><ns0:City><span
style='color:navy'>Brunswick</span></ns0:City><span style='color:navy'>, </span><ns0:State><span
style='color:navy'>GA</span></ns0:State><span style='color:navy'> </span><ns0:PostalCode><span
style='color:navy'>31525</span></ns0:PostalCode></ns0:place></span><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>1-800-962-7802</span><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>www.radiosouthrc.com</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing List</ns0:PersonName><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Another good point Jason. The more that the
F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P
with equal mediocrity but the F always just scared me off. Maybe one of my
goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing I
might try it.<br>
From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<br>
<br>
Anthony<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From: jshulman@cfl.rr.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=ec300100000-01022008><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Problem with that is that
we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F... so why hold 2
FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1 sequence is
easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have a handle
on the other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if FAI
were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more
Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this
right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at
the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F
locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.</span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
www.jasonshulman.com<br>
www.shulmanaviation.com<br>
www.composite-arf.com <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave
Burton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> '<ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing List</ns0:PersonName>'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There is a way to solve the peer judging and several other
problems with changing maneuver schedules for Master’s class.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Let Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a
separate class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be
completely familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be
completely familiar with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have
to come up with a new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just
like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that
flying the P schedule should not be any problem for masters class flyers.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>OK, Flame suit on!</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark
Atwood<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <ns0:PersonName>NSRCA Mailing List</ns0:PersonName><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>For our “matrix” version, the
A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The scorer set up
a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their scores. It
worked quite well with only a little confusion. <br>
<br>
It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8.
I’m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had
some variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the format.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com>
wrote:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as
be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really
like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer.
Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that<br>
One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in
Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge
and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time
required would work out the same because the group had two less pilots but
again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as
the contest end grew near. <br>
<br>
Anthony</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<br>
From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Anthony,<br>
<br>
I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4
years back at our district championships with the masters class. We had
17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong sentence.<br>
<br>
So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked very
well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work
well. We ! used pe er judging for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight
lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high
and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This
allowed the person before and after each flight some time to prep and
decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start over
on the second line.<br>
<br>
It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you
completely randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged
but the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group
each round.<br>
<br>
It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were
presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries. <br>
<br>
On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later when we had
similar numbers (16 masters pilots)<br>
<br>
We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and
Advanced j! udges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice
versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each
group and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a
“Finalists” group (with the other 8 judging and flying in their own
group for the bottom 8 spots.)<br>
<br>
This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the
long run.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim"
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Hey Anthony,<br>
<br>
**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for
political correctness *****<br>
<br>
I don’t think peer judging works. I don’t think it sends the
right message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per
maneuver for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does
not foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer
judging). <br>
<br>
The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges
see and subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the
same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if one judge is off
from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should
probably be in place for this to! work l ike: large number of judges,
drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity,
and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work. <br>
<br>
I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched
the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not
to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario. <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Jim W.<br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI
pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could keep your
objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did it work out? Sound
interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI
rules and the sequence.<br>
Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious
drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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