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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Tony, I can respect that..But I think with Contest being so
spread out they DO Qualify as Regional Events. When I go to Florida, Alabama,
Tennessee & further in our Regional Districts these are not Local. I think
Local would be more of a Club contest scenario. For a U.S.
Application.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> Lets face it the current & upcoming F schedules
are getting tougher. I think there is a reason for it. To separate the growing
crop of able flyers. I also know there are Competitors out there that Like
challenges and are willing to grow there RC flying skills. I know in D3
(Regional area) Most are looking forward the challenge. To grow
a new skill set. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> Masters has a very completive sequence & evenly
equal to the P skill sets to compete with. Lets not take away the growth
so many are happy to see come to our Regional/District Events. To fly Real FAI
stuff!!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=437180114-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> Respectfully
submitted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Tony<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'NSRCA
Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Those are the very
reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules state that the F patterns
are for Regional, National and International events, and are not designed to be
flown at a local contest. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tony Stillman,
President</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Radio South,
Inc.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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322</st1:address></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Brunswick</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">, <st1:State
w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">31525</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1-800-962-7802</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">www.radiosouthrc.com</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony Romano<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Another good point Jason. The more
that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I can fly Masters or
the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just scared me off. Maybe one
of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no
laughing I might try it.<BR> From comments I have hear a lot of guys just
don't want to deal with
rollers.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From: jshulman@cfl.rr.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38
-0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=ec300100000-01022008><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Problem
with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to fly F...
so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1
sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to have
a handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just me, but if
FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a more
Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is this
right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at
the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start flying F
locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dave Burton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> '<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>'<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">There is a
way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with changing maneuver
schedules for Master’s class.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Let Masters class
fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class. This provides a
way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely familiar with the
maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar with the
schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a new schedule
periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI. The schedules (P
& Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P schedule should not
be any problem for masters class flyers.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">OK, Flame suit
on!</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Mark Atwood<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by
commitee?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">For our “matrix” version, the
A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The scorer set up
a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their scores. It
worked quite well with only a little confusion. <BR><BR>It did a great job
of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8. I’m pretty sure
you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some variance...but I think
that’s true regardless of the format.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 3:49
PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR> I suspected this
would require super- human objectivity as well as be a logistical nightmare.
However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really like the matrix system but
not sure how much work that makes for the scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on
how to score that<BR> One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly
an extra round in Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two
masters pilots judge and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems
like the time required would work out the same because the group had two less
pilots but again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required
especially as the contest end grew near.
<BR> <BR>Anthony</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15
-0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by
commitee?<BR><BR>Anthony,<BR><BR>I have to agree with Jim, but for different
reasons. We did this about 4 years back at our district championships with
the masters class. We had 17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI,
and another 6 or 7 in advanced. So getting any judging at all would have
required heavily using the Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR,
heavily burdening the few Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights
is a looooong sentence.<BR><BR>So we did the peer judging scenario. Given
the options, it worked very well. But it requires some serious juggling to
even try and make it work well. We used peer judging for 4 of the 6
rounds. Two flight lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges
on each line, tossed high and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at
any given time. This allowed the person before and after each flight some
time to prep and decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and
then start over on the second line.<BR><BR>It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy process,
not to mention that unless you completely randomly resort the flight line each
round, the pilot will be judged but the same group...or maybe more importantly
NOT judged by the same group each round.<BR><BR>It worked...but it was messy.
I would only do it again if we were presented with the same grossly offset
numbers of entries. <BR><BR>On a related note... A better solution
was tried a few years later when we had similar numbers (16 masters
pilots)<BR><BR>We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still
used FAI and Advanced judges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for
A and vice versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4
from each group and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a
“Finalists” group (with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group for
the bottom 8 spots.)<BR><BR> This was MUCH more workable, and I think
netted a fairer event in the long
run.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward,
Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hey
Anthony,<BR> <BR>**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too
much regard for political correctness *****<BR> <BR>I don’t think peer
judging works. I don’t think it sends the right message about problem
solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the right
mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows like
Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging).
<BR> <BR>The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that
all pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points per
maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if one
judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff
should probably be in place for this to work like: large number of judges,
drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity,
and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work.
<BR> <BR>I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI
contest. I watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is
that I would chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
W.<BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">CONFIDENTIALITY
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
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nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</A>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Anthony
Romano<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January
31, 2008 1:44 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by
commitee?<BR><BR>Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a
note on the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity
of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could
keep your objectivity? For those that were there how did it work out? Sound
interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI rules
and the sequence.<BR> Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters
class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some
thought.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR> <BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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