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<title>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There is a way to solve the peer judging and several other
problems with changing maneuver schedules for Master’s class.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Let Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a
separate class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be
completely familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be
completely familiar with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have
to come up with a new schedule periodically as it changes every other year just
like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that
flying the P schedule should not be any problem for masters class flyers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>OK, Flame suit on!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark
Atwood<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>For our “matrix” version, the
A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The scorer set up
a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their scores. It
worked quite well with only a little confusion. <br>
<br>
It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8.
I’m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had
some variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the format.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com>
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as
be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really
like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer.
Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that<br>
One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in
Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge
and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time
required would work out the same because the group had two less pilots but
again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as
the contest end grew near. <br>
<br>
Anthony</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500<br>
From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Anthony,<br>
<br>
I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4
years back at our district championships with the masters class. We had
17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong sentence.<br>
<br>
So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked very
well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work
well. We used peer judging for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight lines,
with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high and
low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This
allowed the person before and after each flight some time to prep and
decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start over
on the second line.<br>
<br>
It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you
completely randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged
but the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group
each round.<br>
<br>
It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were
presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries. <br>
<br>
On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later when we had
similar numbers (16 masters pilots)<br>
<br>
We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and
Advanced judges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice
versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each
group and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a
“Finalists” group (with the other 8 judging and flying in their own
group for the bottom 8 spots.)<br>
<br>
This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the
long run.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Hey Anthony,<br>
<br>
**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for
political correctness *****<br>
<br>
I don’t think peer judging works. I don’t think it sends the
right message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per
maneuver for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does
not foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer
judging). <br>
<br>
The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges
see and subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the
same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if one judge is off
from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should
probably be in place for this to work like: large number of judges, drop
high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and
judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work. <br>
<br>
I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched
the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not
to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario. <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Jim W.<br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
</span><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Finally got a
chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest.
The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI pilots. Could
someone please provide details. Do you think you could keep your objectivity?
For those that were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you
would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and the sequence.<br>
Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious
drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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