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Sealer? Cheap hairspray.... : ) Just don't let the wife catch you!!! <BR><BR>
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:48:49 -0500<BR>From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] epoxy question-I am back<BR><BR>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">If we use a super thin epoxy to glass with, wont the porous contest grade balsa soak up that much more?</SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Is there a method (light method) of sealing the balsa first??</SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Which adds more weight? And at some point there is the need to fill the weave of the cloth…even the ˝ oz cloth needs some filling. Is that better done with primer?? Or talc filled thin epoxy?</SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">So many questions….</SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">-M</SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Lance Van Nostrand<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 26, 2007 10:48 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] epoxy question-I am back</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I use the West system all the time but we use custom blends made up by master Fowler for AeroSlave parts after all our R&D on the process design. West 205 hardener gives about 925 cps and the 207 gives about 750. The thin stuff Gray is talking about is half that!</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">--lance</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=Pattrnflyr@aol.com href="mailto:Pattrnflyr@aol.com">Pattrnflyr@aol.com</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Monday, November 26, 2007 11:20 AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] epoxy question-I am back</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I have built several wood racing boats with West System. The 105/205 is for gluing and the 105/207 is for glassing and is much thinner and easier to work with. I glue the boat together with 105/205 and then roll on 105/207 for the final finish and you are done.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Bruce Reins<BR>A Stock Hydro/Runabout<BR>15-R </SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">In a message dated 11/26/2007 8:46:44 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, lightfoot@sc.rr.com writes:</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">West’s 105/205 system seems to be a low viscosity epoxy. It is a slow cure (8 hrs) so if you add solvent it should have plenty of time to evaporate. I have only used it for sheeting, not glassing – yet.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Jay Marshall</SPAN></I></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Gray E Fowler<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 26, 2007 10:23 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] epoxy question-I am back</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">1. "Thinning the epoxy saves no weight by evaporation. There is virtually no evaporation and no weight loss-a big time erroneous assumption on my part. So if you mix 2 ounces of epoxy and add 2 ounces of thinner and put it all on the airplane, you have added 4 ounces to the airplane. "</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">After seeing the real question I expected a weight increase of at least 9% (how much water in the mix). If you put 1oz (by weight) of solvent in 1 oz of epoxy, and apply it as a coating , thin, you will eventually end up with 1 oz of epoxy. Mike, your solvent got trapped, and now it will have less adhesion, less tensile, Compression and flexure strength, and will now shrink slowly as the alcohol exits the cured epoxy, over a year or so (see Wayne's answer).</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">None of the solvent's listed will react with any epoxy blend. Exotherm is negligible when applied as a thin coating, but significant in mass. The ability to have the solvent evaporate out of the epoxy coating is directly related to the mixed viscosity of the neat epoxy blend and the cure rate of the epoxy. Those of you who ran experiments with 5 minute epoxy reported bad results because of high viscosity and fast cure rate.The high viscosity (even Mike's blend is apparently too high) will cause a skin effect where the solvent evaporates from the surface first, creating a high viscosity skin, then the epoxy starts to cure increasing viscosity even more, thus trapping the solvent. Using fiberglass makes this even worse. MIKE- in one year from now your wings will weigh less.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So it sounds like the the Pattern Dudes of the world need a solution. What AeroSlave can do is provide a super low viscosity epoxy for sale. This will be 100% solids (which means NO solvents). Chances are, as a mixed epoxy, the viscosity will be lower than even blends with some solvent in them. This can be used to apply fiberglass to wings or as a general laminating resin.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">How much interest would there be for such a a product? It would probably cost about $50/ quart, $25/ pint. It would absolutely require an accurate scale (+/- 1 gram) to WEIGH the epoxy and hardener into the appropriate mix ratio. AND I offer no warranty, simply because you guys are the biggest bunch of experimenters in the world, and I cannot control, nor anticipate how this could get screwed up.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">1. Operator cannot operate a scale.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">2. Operator has a crappy scale.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">3. Operator added solvent anyway because thats how he has always done it...since 1976</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">4. Operators basement is 100% realative humidity..condensation on the wing.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">5. Operator added "more" hardener to make it cure faster.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">6. Operator......(enter F/U here).</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">As you can see there is one common theme to all of these possible problems, Operator, i.e. customer.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So if you are STILL interested please respond and Lance and I will take it under advisement.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><BR><BR><BR>Gray Fowler<BR>Senior Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Radomes and Specialty Apertures<BR>Technical Staff Composites Engineering<BR>Raytheon</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></P>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">"Dr. Mike Harrison" <drmikedds@sbcglobal.net></SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN> </P>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">11/23/2007 01:57 PM</SPAN> <BR>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Please respond to<BR>NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">"NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></SPAN> </P></TD></TR>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">[NSRCA-discussion] epoxy question</SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<P class=EC_MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I have read with interest all the comments and some of you have educated me on this issue. If I may, I will share what I have learned.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">1. Thinning the epoxy saves no weight by evaporation. There is virtually no evaporation and no weight loss-a big time erroneous assumption on my part. So if you mix 2 ounces of epoxy and add 2 ounces of thinner and put it all on the airplane, you have added 4 ounces to the airplane. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">2. The properties of the epoxy are changed-it becomes rubbery.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">3. Changing the properties is not an issue regarding finishing the airplane(painting)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">4. Using thinned epoxy is fine for applying glass cloth.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">5. I have tried MEK(epoxy thinner), denatured alcohol, 91%alcohol, acetone. My preference is denatured alcohol because it is the safest and most economical, I think. I thought MEK would be the answer. It is the worst of the bunch. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">6. The best way to glass surfaces is to thin the epoxy and apply as sparingly as possible. A way to do that is to apply and wipe off excess with paper towels. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">7. It is almost exactly 2 ounces to glass a wing panel complete, so 4 ounces for a whole wing. About 2 ounces for a stab. Properly done wings and stab glassed and painted is 2-2.5 times the weight of monokote. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">8. A second thinned coat of epoxy on the glassed wing is .75 ounces each wing panel-1.5 oz total.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Pick your poison.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Later,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Mike</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <BR> </SPAN><TT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">_______________________________________________</SPAN></TT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><BR><TT>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</TT><BR><TT>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</TT><BR><TT>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</TT></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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