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<DIV>I use the West system all the time but we use custom blends made up by
master Fowler for AeroSlave parts after all our R&D on the process
design. West 205 hardener gives about 925 cps and the 207 gives about
750. The thin stuff Gray is talking about is half that!</DIV>
<DIV>--lance</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Pattrnflyr@aol.com
href="mailto:Pattrnflyr@aol.com">Pattrnflyr@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 26, 2007 11:20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] epoxy
question-I am back</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV>I have built several wood racing boats with West System. The
105/205 is for gluing and the 105/207 is for glassing and is much thinner and
easier to work with. I glue the boat together with 105/205 and then roll
on 105/207 for the final finish and you are done.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Bruce
Reins<BR>A Stock Hydro/Runabout<BR>15-R
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/26/2007 8:46:44 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
lightfoot@sc.rr.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">West’s 105/205
system seems to be a low viscosity epoxy. It is a slow cure (8 hrs) so if
you add solvent it should have plenty of time to evaporate. I have only used
it for sheeting, not glassing – yet.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Jay
</SPAN></FONT></I></B><B><I><FONT face="Brush Script MT" color=navy
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'">Marshall</SPAN></FONT></I></B><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
[mailto:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Gray E
Fowler<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday,
November 26, 2007 10:23 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] epoxy
question-I am back</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1. "Thinning the epoxy
saves no weight by evaporation. There is virtually no evaporation and
no weight loss-a big time erroneous assumption on my part. So if you
mix 2 ounces of epoxy and add 2 ounces of thinner and put it all on the
airplane, you have added 4 ounces to the airplane. "</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">After seeing the real question I
expected a weight increase of at least 9% (how much water in the mix). If
you put 1oz (by weight) of solvent in 1 oz of epoxy, and apply it as a
coating , thin, you will eventually end up with 1 oz of epoxy. Mike, your
solvent got trapped, and now it will have less adhesion, less tensile,
Compression and flexure strength, and will now shrink slowly as the alcohol
exits the cured epoxy, over a year or so (see Wayne's answer).</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">None of the solvent's listed
will react with any epoxy blend. Exotherm is negligible when applied as a
thin coating, but significant in mass. The ability to have the solvent
evaporate out of the epoxy coating is directly related to the mixed
viscosity of the neat epoxy blend and the cure rate of the epoxy. Those of
you who ran experiments with 5 minute epoxy reported bad results because of
high viscosity and fast cure rate.The high viscosity (even Mike's blend is
apparently too high) will cause a skin effect where the solvent evaporates
from the surface first, creating a high viscosity skin, then the epoxy
starts to cure increasing viscosity even more, thus trapping the solvent.
Using fiberglass makes this even worse. MIKE- in one year from now your
wings will weigh less.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So it sounds like the the
Pattern Dudes of the world need a solution. What AeroSlave can do is
provide a super low viscosity epoxy for sale. This will be 100% solids
(which means NO solvents). Chances are, as a mixed epoxy, the viscosity will
be lower than even blends with some solvent in them. This can be used to
apply fiberglass to wings or as a general laminating resin.</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">How much interest would there be
for such a a product? It would probably cost about $50/ quart, $25/ pint. It
would absolutely require an accurate scale (+/- 1 gram) to WEIGH the epoxy
and hardener into the appropriate mix ratio. AND I offer no warranty, simply
because you guys are the biggest bunch of experimenters in the world, and I
cannot control, nor anticipate how this could get screwed up.</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1. Operator cannot operate a
scale.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">2. Operator has a crappy
scale.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">3. Operator added solvent anyway
because thats how he has always done it...since 1976</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">4.
Operators basement is 100% realative humidity..condensation on the
wing.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">5. Operator added "more"
hardener to make it cure faster.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">6.
Operator......(enter F/U here).</SPAN></FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As you can see
there is one common theme to all of these possible problems, Operator, i.e.
customer.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So if you are STILL interested
please respond and Lance and I will take it under advisement.</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif"><BR><BR><BR>Gray
Fowler<BR>Senior Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Radomes and Specialty
Apertures<BR>Technical Staff Composites
Engineering<BR>Raytheon</SPAN></FONT> <BR><BR></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">"Dr.
Mike Harrison" <drmikedds@sbcglobal.net></SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">
</SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">Sent by:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">11/23/2007 01:57
PM</SPAN></FONT> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">Please respond
to<BR>NSRCA Mailing List
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></SPAN></FONT></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">"NSRCA Mailing
List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><FONT
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style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">Subject</SPAN></FONT></P></TD>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif">[NSRCA-discussion]
epoxy question</SPAN></FONT></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt"
vAlign=top>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt"
vAlign=top>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have
read with interest all the comments and some of you have educated me on this
issue. If I may, I will share what I have learned.</SPAN></FONT>
<BR> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1. Thinning the epoxy
saves no weight by evaporation. There is virtually no evaporation and
no weight loss-a big time erroneous assumption on my part. So if you
mix 2 ounces of epoxy and add 2 ounces of thinner and put it all on the
airplane, you have added 4 ounces to the airplane. </SPAN></FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">2. The properties of the
epoxy are changed-it becomes rubbery.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">3. Changing
the properties is not an issue regarding finishing the
airplane(painting)</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">4. Using thinned epoxy is
fine for applying glass cloth.</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">5. I have
tried MEK(epoxy thinner), denatured alcohol, 91%alcohol, acetone. My
preference is denatured alcohol because it is the safest and most
economical, I think. I thought MEK would be the answer. It is
the worst of the bunch. </SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">6. The best
way to glass surfaces is to thin the epoxy and apply as sparingly as
possible. A way to do that is to apply and wipe off excess with paper
towels. </SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">7. It is almost exactly 2
ounces to glass a wing panel complete, so 4 ounces for a whole wing.
About 2 ounces for a stab. Properly done wings and stab glassed
and painted is 2-2.5 times the weight of monokote. </SPAN></FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">8. A second thinned coat
of epoxy on the glassed wing is .75 ounces each wing panel-1.5 oz
total.</SPAN></FONT> <BR> <BR> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Pick your poison.</SPAN></FONT>
<BR> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Later,</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mike</SPAN></FONT>
<BR> <TT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________</SPAN></FONT></TT><FONT
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