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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thank you,
that is very interesting especially the comments about snap offset and spin
stopping. Looks like the hardest thing is training the thumbs to apply a rapid
sequence of inputs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jack Keiser<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 23, 2007
8:42 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging Snaps & spins II</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Earl,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Been
following this thread for a while now and felt compelled to offer my two cents
worth. </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I have
a little problem with your auto analogy. In the case of an abrupt steering
input in a fast moving car, the forces trying to change the car's path are
due to the traction of the tire against the pavement; the force trying to keep
the car going in its original direction is due to the momentum of the
vehicle, according to some guy named Newton. Even the smallest lateral force
will produce some correspondingly small change in direction. In the real world,
a lot of factors come into play: sidewall flex causing tire slip angle,
suspension response, roll stiffness and so on. If traction were lost
immediately, as might be the case when driving on a sheet of ice, turning the
wheel sharply produces no change in direction - momentum keeps the car going
straight ahead. Only after some traction is regained will the car turn.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Now let
me switch gears a bit and talk about snaps and spins. I'm not an aerodynamicist
so I don't pretend to understand all the aerodynamic events that take place in
a snap. But I do have quite a bit of experience in full scale aerobatics
in a variety of aircraft ranging from Cessna Aerobats, Pitts bipes, Giles 200&202 to
the Sukhoi 26. I have also been flying pattern since the '70's (with a few
breaks here and there) and recently, IMAC, so I appreciate that aspect as well.
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The
judging criteria for snap rolls is basically the same in all three venues;
particularly with respect to the pitch break. I have received zeros in all
three venues when that was not clearly observed ( I can't recall any 10's even
when the break was obvious). That does not mean the airplane did not snap
(auto-rotation); I just didn't do it according to the prevailing judging
criteria. When you're in the aircraft, its quite obvious when
auto-rotation occurs. Some aircraft, particularly the Giles 200, can roll so
fast (about 540 deg/sec) that its nearly impossible from the ground to tell a
full deflection aileron roll, with a little rudder thrown in, from a true snap.
And you do not need the pitch break to get a true snap - just jerk the stick
toward the right (or left) rear corner and kick hard right (or
left) rudder simultaneously, and I guarantee you'll experience a
violent snap with true auto-rotation. The G-200 is the closest thing you can
imagine to a model; you can fly it with two fingers and it responds about the
same as an IMAC plane.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The
other extreme is the Su-26. Its like flying a John Deere. Two hands on a stick
that resembles a baseball bat. If you try the same control inputs for the snap
as the Giles, it just mushes around. Here, the pitch break to load the wing
seems more of a necessity. And (in a positive snap) you only pull the stick
back partially,but smartly, maybe a third of the way, then shove it
quickly toward the right forward corner to unload the elevator and bring in the
aileron. Full right rudder applied just as the nose pitches up. Despite the
significant mass, and relatively high polar moments, the plane auto-rotates
with surprising speed - not like the Giles, but pretty darn quick. To stop on
heading, you need hard left rudder and some left aileron. You may stop on
heading (with practice) but you will have moved to the right of your original
flight path - that can be readily observed in a snap on the vertical up
line.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Why the
Sukhoi and the Giles behave so differently is due to a lot of factors. I
suspect one major factor is the gyroscopic effect of the extremely large prop
on the Sukhoi; the gyro effects are much more noticeable - that's why it does a
Lomcevak so well. The wing loading of the Sukhoi is much higher than the Giles,
and so are the moments of inertia. Of course, the wing airfoil is different
too. Many other differences (including fuel consumption).</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Regarding
spins, hardly any full scale pilot does a true spin in competition. The entry
is usually done in the classic way; stick full back to the stall break, nursing
it with subtle aileron and rudder input to get it to drop off on the side you
want, then as soon as the nose falls through, push the stick forward to break
the stall and keep the rotation going with aileron and rudder. You're really in
a tight aileron turn, both wings are flying, but it looks like a spin. Most
important, you can stop on heading very accurately. The downside is that you
probably lose a little more altitude. You could just hold the stick back, full
rudder deflection and neutral aileron, then stop the spin with opposite rudder
and stick forward but the stop is unpredictable.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>How
does all this relate to models? Not sure, but I thought a different perspective
might be interesting. </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>It
might also be interesting to know the that the same topics - spins, snaps,
judging competence, etc - receive about the same amount of gripes in each
venue. No surprise there.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Jack</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
background:#E4E4E4'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" title="ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl Haury</a> </span></font></div>
<font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Discussion List, NSRCA</a> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>
Tuesday, October 23, 2007 5:26 AM</span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Snaps & spins II</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Posted this as a reply yesterday but it got snagged as too long
with the ongoing thread attached - started a new thread.</span></font><font
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Jim</span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Don't think that'll work very well. Let's take the analogy of a
car moving in a straight line slowly - turn the steering quickly and the car
will turn - changing "track". Do the same thing at high speed and the
car will skid - track stays mostly the same and only attitude changes. Entering
a snap is similar - establish a "skid". In both cases there will be a
minimal departure from the original line until "traction" is lost and
the skid occurs. Consider that the faster the pitch input the less AOA
increase will be needed before rudder application. This is where we get into
trouble trying to define a "break" into a snap, some visualize this
as needing to be huge while, in reality, it may only be a few degrees. </span></font><font
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Also - with regard to the departure from track before the
"skid". F3A rules require a "separation from the flight
path" and AMA rules allow it "track closely maintains the flight
path". Numerous things will define the amount of "separation"
including rapidity of pitch / yaw, mass of airplane, wing loading, etc.
The separation may be a few inches to a couple of feet and is not to be
downgraded as long as the aircraft "closely maintains" track. So - if
the snap (skid) progresses more or less parallel to but slightly offset (maybe
in both pitch & yaw) it's not only OK, but a pretty good indicator that the
snap isn't an axial roll.</span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Use the description to think through set-up and control inputs.
Recognize that a properly done snap entry takes only a fraction of a second (if
you have time to see exactly what's going on you'll be getting downgrades for
track changes). With the proper set-up and practice a snap entry can be perfect
almost every time - that just leaves the exit to deal with. Finish wings level
and enjoy the 10!</span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Earl</span></font><font color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:40.2pt;text-align:center;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;
border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
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margin-left:40.2pt;background:white;mso-shading:transparent;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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