<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<STYLE>.hmmessage P {
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
BODY.hmmessage {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma
}
</STYLE>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16544" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY class=hmmessage bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The problem we have is not understanding snap
dynamics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Rudder, elevator and aileron are EQUALLY important to
the snap.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Visionalizing the S & L up/rt snap we see that aileron
makes a critical contribution to reaching the lead wing stall AOA ( due to
rud ).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>To be a thing of beauty ( ahem, 10 )
the break will need to be initiated simaltaneously on all
axis. Nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ejhaury@comcast.net href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl Haury</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:54
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>I also agree with the comments of Jon and John.
Chris's observations are also valid and I'd like to expand on his thoughts a
bit. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>Remember, we use contestant judging - so it's a
pretty good bet that if the judge isn't capable of judging a snap correctly,
it's also unlikely that person can perform one correctly as a pilot. I'll
bet that often the judge "requiring" a huge "break" is the same person flying
them with a snap switch, or dual rates, set to maximum travels for all axis.
They just chop power and pull the switch or stuff the sticks into the corner.
Generally this results in a three axis track departure of some 15 to 30
degrees (as a barrel roll), now interpreted as a "break", before flow
separation occurs on the lagging wing and a snap actually occurs. These
excessive control inputs also bury the snap and make it totally ugly.
However - these folks are doing what they think is required for a snap, so it
must be right. (A lot of these never snap and are total barrel
rolls.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>So - the education process is better focused on
the pilot than the judge, and both will benefit (as will we all). As John
points out - each full scale will have different snap characteristics. Same
with pattern airplanes, and each situation may vary (45 deg lines, vertical up
-down, level, avalanche, etc.). Snaps take a good set-up and skill to fly
well, as well as being a fun part of pattern. Flyers who take the time to
determine just what set-up up and technique their airplane needs to snap well
shouldn't be penalized by those (pilot judges) who don't. However, this
whole issue might slip away if those who've figured out how to do decent snaps
would take the time to share with those that haven't. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:01
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Jon and John are correct in their comments. <BR>To add
something - I think the problem is that many of us "cater" to the <BR>judges
who do not judge these maneuvers correctly. There is no <BR>requirement to
over exaggerate the break in order to do the maneuver, <BR>however many do
just that as a defensive tactic against the judge who <BR>refuses to judge
correctly. The problem is the JUDGE - not the pilot. <BR>I don't advocate
changing the schedules or K factors as a work around <BR>for poorly informed
judges. We are much too politically correct and <BR>accept the zeros from
them if we don't do it "their" way. If you <BR>compete regularly, you know
who they are and cater your maneuver to <BR>accommodate their lack of
ability in the chair. Sorry for the rant, but <BR>we are talking about
fixing things the wrong way for the wrong reasons. <BR><BR>Chris
<BR><BR><BR>John Ford wrote: <BR>> Jon, <BR>> Hear, hear. <BR>>
Couldn't have said it better! <BR>> I also share the opinion that in the
case of the snap (or the spin <BR>> entry for that matter), our judging
standards don't judge actual <BR>> flight characteristics of the
particular plane, and we are asking <BR>> pilots to exagerate the break
because that is what we agreed we wanted <BR>> to see all the time, not
because every plane should show it naturally. <BR>> Maybe we are sitting
on this bed of nails because for many people, the <BR>> mystery and
controversy of the break is more attractive than <BR>> aerodynamic
reality? <BR>> I've done lots of snaps in full-sized planes and there are
as many <BR>> break styles as there are airplane designs. Some
older/larger planes <BR>> require that you slow up and reef back almost
to the buffet before <BR>> mashing the rudder, others are so touchy that
a modest tap on the <BR>> rudder with only a hint of pitchup will send
the beast thru 150 <BR>> degrees of autorotation before you can think
about it. In both cases, <BR>> believe me, it was a true snap roll, but
in the first case, you may <BR>> have seen some break, but in the latter,
it would have looked like <BR>> everything happened at the same time
around all 3 axes. I'm sitting in <BR>> the thing, and I can't tell!
<BR>> Essentially the same comments for spin entry, in agreement with
Jon's <BR>> comments. <BR>> I'll judge by the rules of the CD, but I
do it with a bit of a <BR>> shoulder shrug, I suppose. <BR>> John
<BR>> <BR>> */JonLowe@aol.com/* wrote: <BR>> <BR>> The age old
problem of what a "break" is in a snap was solved at <BR>> the Don Lowe
Masters a couple of years ago. They defined it as a <BR>> "simultaneous
departure in all three axis". There you saw graceful <BR>> snap entries,
clearly defineable as a snap. At the IMAC Tuscon <BR>> shootout, they had
had the pitch departure requirement, and most <BR>> were pitching what
looked like 45 degrees (was probably 25 <BR>> degrees), before they
entered the snap. Break, pause, enter snap. <BR>> Ugly as hell. At a
pattern judging seminar I went to this year, we <BR>> sat around for half
an our trying to decide what a "pitch break" <BR>> was. We finally
decided that if you saw anything at all, it was <BR>> ok. But beware of
IMAC judges crossing over, unless they have been <BR>> retrained. I got
some 5's this year this year, because they didn't <BR>> see a large
break. <BR>> As regards spin entries, there are too many spin entry nazis
IMHO. <BR>> The rule book clearly defines downgrades for entries. In my
book, <BR>> if they don't break any of those rules, (wing coming over
before <BR>> the nose passes thru horizontal, not stalled, weathervaning,
<BR>> etc.), I don't downgrade for the entry. Too many people want to
<BR>> add their own definition to the rules about how an entry "should"
<BR>> look, and tell you they downgraded or zeroed you. When you ask
<BR>> them what specific rule you violated, they say it "didn't look
<BR>> right". Some of these same people will coach you to "cheat" at the
<BR>> entry to get a pretty one, dumping up elevator to get the nose to
<BR>> fall thru, which really breaks the stall. Unfortunately, all
<BR>> airplanes do not enter the same way, and some entries are not
<BR>> pretty, but they don't break the rules. Maybe, as well as teaching
<BR>> what isn't correct, we ought to teach what ISN'T downgradeable in
<BR>> some of these manuevers. <BR>> Jon <BR>> In a message dated
10/21/2007 8:50:52 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>> patterndude@tx.rr.com
writes: <BR>> <BR>> Ron, <BR>> Your idea caused me to stop and
think. I'm wondering if it <BR>> would really help, however. If a pilot
"in the hunt" screws <BR>> the landing (K=1) he's now "out of the hunt"
on that round. <BR>> Scores are often very compressed at local contests
so even if <BR>> we reduce the KF, a bad score on any manuver is usually
enough <BR>> to do mortal damage. <BR>> --Lance <BR>> <BR>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>> *From:* Ron Lockhart
<MAILTO:RONLOCK@COMCAST.NET><BR>> *To:* NSRCA Mailing List <BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> *Sent:* Saturday, October
20, 2007 11:34 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap
& spin <BR>> <BR>> Eliminating is one solution - a price that
comes with that <BR>> solution is lack of practice doing and judging
snaps- <BR>> which is desirable for some in AMA classes, and for sure
<BR>> for those looking ahead to F3A. <BR>> An in between thought -
reduce the K factor considerable <BR>> for snap and spin maneuvers.
<BR>> That leaves them in the schedules, provides flying and <BR>>
judging practice on them, but reduces the <BR>> impact of the imperfect
judging of them on round scores. <BR>> Ron Lockhart <BR>> <BR>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>> *From:* BUDDYonRC@aol.com
<MAILTO:BUDDYONRC@AOL.COM><BR>> *To:* nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
<BR>> <MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> *Sent:* Saturday,
October 20, 2007 11:44 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
<BR>> <BR>> My cents worth on the subject. <BR>> Snaps and Spin
entry seem to cause much of the problem. <BR>> Why do we continue to
repeat trying to solve a problem <BR>> that most agree is controversial
at best and <BR>> impossible to judge consistently on an equal basis?
<BR>> Seems that the best solution is to eliminate these <BR>> from
the schedules and pick maneuvers that more suit <BR>> Precision
Aerobatics and their ability to be judged <BR>> correctly by everyone not
just those who have advanced <BR>> to the top of the super judge
platform. <BR>> <BR>> Buddy <BR>> <BR>> Jon Lowe <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>> See what's new at AOL.com <BR>> <HTTP: www.aol.com
?NCID="AOLCMP00300000001170">and Make AOL Your <BR>> Homepage <HTTP:
www.aol.com mksplash.adp?NCID="AOLCMP00300000001169">. <BR>>
_______________________________________________ <BR>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list <BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> __________________________________________________ <BR>> Do You
Yahoo!? <BR>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around <BR>> http://mail.yahoo.com <BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
<BR>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
<BR><BR><BR>
<HR>
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. <A
href="http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline"
target=_new>Stop by today!</A>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>