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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Right Brian. FAI doesen't have a problem, AMA
doesen't have a problem, but I believe we have found the enemy, LOL</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=brian_w_young@yahoo.com href="mailto:brian_w_young@yahoo.com">brian
young</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 22, 2007 10:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Winter must be coming....but arent we getting to this topic a few weeks
early?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><IMG
src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif"><BR><BR><B><I>Nat
Penton <<A
href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">natpenton@centurytel.net</A>></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That part of pitch change that occurs prior to
reaching the stall AOA is not a snap, therefore that part should be
downgraded using 1 point per degree criteria. " Untill the wing stalls it is
not a snap"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 22, 2007 12:59
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The only problem
with simultaneous initiation in all 3 axis is that it is a guarantee that
the beginning of the roll was not in a stalled condition, i.e. not an
autorotation. Therefore, that part of the roll isn’t a snap and
should be downgraded using 1 point per degree criteria. Then the
trick becomes determining just when the autorotation actually did commence
while the airplane is already rolling quickly, primarily due to aileron
and to a degree rudder. Until the wing stalls, it’s not a
snap. The main thing that you can hope for in a real snap roll that
relates to precision is that you get the correct number of degrees of roll
caused by autorotation in a stalled condition. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ed</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Nat Penton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, October 22, 2007 12:34
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The problem we
have is not understanding snap dynamics.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Rudder, elevator
and aileron are EQUALLY important to the
snap.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Visionalizing the
S & L up/rt snap we see that aileron makes a critical contribution to
reaching the lead wing stall AOA ( due to rud
).</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To be a thing of
beauty ( ahem, 10 ) the break will need to be
initiated simaltaneously on all
axis.
Nat</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<DIV class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=ejhaury@comcast.net href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl
Haury</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:54 PM</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I also agree
with the comments of Jon and John. Chris's observations are also valid
and I'd like to expand on his thoughts a bit. </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Remember, we
use contestant judging - so it's a pretty good bet that if the judge
isn't capable of judging a snap correctly, it's also unlikely
that person can perform one correctly as a pilot. I'll bet that
often the judge "requiring" a huge "break" is the same person flying
them with a snap switch, or dual rates, set to maximum travels for all
axis. They just chop power and pull the switch or stuff the sticks into
the corner. Generally this results in a three axis track departure of
some 15 to 30 degrees (as a barrel roll), now interpreted as a "break",
before flow separation occurs on the lagging wing and a snap actually
occurs. These excessive control inputs also bury the snap and make
it totally ugly. However - these folks are doing what they think is
required for a snap, so it must be right. (A lot of these never snap and
are total barrel rolls.)</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So - the
education process is better focused on the pilot than the judge, and
both will benefit (as will we all). As John points out - each full scale
will have different snap characteristics. Same with pattern airplanes,
and each situation may vary (45 deg lines, vertical up -down, level,
avalanche, etc.). Snaps take a good set-up and skill to fly well, as
well as being a fun part of pattern. Flyers who take the time to
determine just what set-up up and technique their airplane needs to snap
well shouldn't be penalized by those (pilot judges) who don't.
However, this whole issue might slip away if those who've figured out
how to do decent snaps would take the time to share with those that
haven't. </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Earl</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<DIV class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<A title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:01 PM</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap &
spin</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Jon and John are correct
in their comments. <BR>To add something - I think the problem is that
many of us "cater" to the <BR>judges who do not judge these maneuvers
correctly. There is no <BR>requirement to over exaggerate the break in
order to do the maneuver, <BR>however many do just that as a defensive
tactic against the judge who <BR>refuses to judge correctly. The
problem is the JUDGE - not the pilot. <BR>I don't advocate changing
the schedules or K factors as a work around <BR>for poorly informed
judges. We are much too politically correct and <BR>accept the zeros
from them if we don't do it "their" way. If you <BR>compete regularly,
you know who they are and cater your maneuver to <BR>accommodate their
lack of ability in the chair. Sorry for the rant, but <BR>we are
talking about fixing things the wrong way for the wrong reasons.
<BR><BR>Chris <BR><BR><BR>John Ford wrote: <BR>> Jon, <BR>>
Hear, hear. <BR>> Couldn't have said it better! <BR>> I also
share the opinion that in the case of the snap (or the spin <BR>>
entry for that matter), our judging standards don't judge actual
<BR>> flight characteristics of the particular plane, and we are
asking <BR>> pilots to exagerate the break because that is what we
agreed we wanted <BR>> to see all the time, not because every plane
should show it naturally. <BR>> Maybe we are sitting on this bed of
nails because for many people, the <BR>> mystery and controversy of
the break is more attractive than <BR>> aerodynamic reality?
<BR>> I've done lots of snaps in full-sized planes and there are as
many <BR>> break styles as there are airplane designs. Some
older/larger planes <BR>> require that you slow up and reef back
almost to the buffet before <BR>> mashing the rudder, others are so
touchy that a modest tap on the <BR>> rudder with only a hint of
pitchup will send the beast thru 150 <BR>> degrees of autorotation
before you can think about it. In both cases, <BR>> believe me, it
was a true snap roll, but in the first case, you may <BR>> have
seen some break, but in the latter, it would have looked like <BR>>
everything happened at the same time around all 3 axes. I'm sitting in
<BR>> the thing, and I can't tell! <BR>> Essentially the same
comments for spin entry, in agreement with Jon's <BR>> comments.
<BR>> I'll judge by the rules of the CD, but I do it with a bit of
a <BR>> shoulder shrug, I suppose. <BR>> John <BR>> <BR>>
*/JonLowe@aol.com/* wrote: <BR>> <BR>> The age old problem of
what a "break" is in a snap was solved at <BR>> the Don Lowe
Masters a couple of years ago. They defined it as a <BR>>
"simultaneous departure in all three axis". There you saw graceful
<BR>> snap entries, clearly defineable as a snap. At the IMAC
Tuscon <BR>> shootout, they had had the pitch departure
requirement, and most <BR>> were pitching what looked like 45
degrees (was probably 25 <BR>> degrees), before they entered the
snap. Break, pause, enter snap. <BR>> Ugly as hell. At a pattern
judging seminar I went to this year, we <BR>> sat around for half
an our trying to decide what a "pitch break" <BR>> was. We finally
decided that if you saw anything at all, it was <BR>> ok. But
beware of IMAC judges crossing over, unless they have been <BR>>
retrained. I got some 5's this year this year, because they didn't
<BR>> see a large break. <BR>> As regards spin entries, there
are too many spin entry nazis IMHO. <BR>> The rule book clearly
defines downgrades for entries. In my book, <BR>> if they don't
break any of those rules, (wing coming over before <BR>> the nose
passes thru horizontal, not stalled, weathervaning, <BR>> etc.), I
don't downgrade for the entry. Too many people want to <BR>> add
their own definition to the rules about how an entry "should" <BR>>
look, and tell you they downgraded or zeroed you. When you ask
<BR>> them what specific rule you violated, they say it "didn't
look <BR>> right". Some of these same people will coach you to
"cheat" at the <BR>> entry to get a pretty one, dumping up elevator
to get the nose to <BR>> fall thru, which really breaks the stall.
Unfortunately, all <BR>> airplanes do not enter the same way, and
some entries are not <BR>> pretty, but they don't break the rules.
Maybe, as well as teaching <BR>> what isn't correct, we ought to
teach what ISN'T downgradeable in <BR>> some of these manuevers.
<BR>> Jon <BR>> In a message dated 10/21/2007 8:50:52 AM Central
Daylight Time, <BR>> patterndude@tx.rr.com writes: <BR>>
<BR>> Ron, <BR>> Your idea caused me to stop and think. I'm
wondering if it <BR>> would really help, however. If a pilot "in
the hunt" screws <BR>> the landing (K=1) he's now "out of the hunt"
on that round. <BR>> Scores are often very compressed at local
contests so even if <BR>> we reduce the KF, a bad score on any
manuver is usually enough <BR>> to do mortal damage. <BR>>
--Lance <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>
*From:* Ron Lockhart <BR><MAILTO:RONLOCK_X0040_COMCAST.NET>> *To:*
NSRCA Mailing List <BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:*
Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:34 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin <BR>> <BR>>
Eliminating is one solution - a price that comes with that <BR>>
solution is lack of practice doing and judging snaps- <BR>> which
is desirable for some in AMA classes, and for sure <BR>> for those
looking ahead to F3A. <BR>> An in between thought - reduce the K
factor considerable <BR>> for snap and spin maneuvers. <BR>>
That leaves them in the schedules, provides flying and <BR>>
judging practice on them, but reduces the <BR>> impact of the
imperfect judging of them on round scores. <BR>> Ron Lockhart
<BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> *From:*
BUDDYonRC@aol.com <BR><MAILTO:BUDDYONRC_X0040_AOL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:*
Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:44 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging <BR>> <BR>> My cents worth on the
subject. <BR>> Snaps and Spin entry seem to cause much of the
problem. <BR>> Why do we continue to repeat trying to solve a
problem <BR>> that most agree is controversial at best and <BR>>
impossible to judge consistently on an equal basis? <BR>> Seems
that the best solution is to eliminate these <BR>> from the
schedules and pick maneuvers that more suit <BR>> Precision
Aerobatics and their ability to be judged <BR>> correctly by
everyone not just those who have advanced <BR>> to the top of the
super judge platform. <BR>> <BR>> Buddy <BR>> <BR>> Jon
Lowe <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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