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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That part of pitch change that occurs prior to
reaching the stall AOA is not a snap, therefore that part should be downgraded
using 1 point per degree criteria. " Untill the wing stalls it is not a
snap"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 22, 2007 12:59
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The only problem with
simultaneous initiation in all 3 axis is that it is a guarantee that the
beginning of the roll was not in a stalled condition, i.e. not an
autorotation. Therefore, that part of the roll isn’t a snap and should
be downgraded using 1 point per degree criteria. Then the trick becomes
determining just when the autorotation actually did commence while the
airplane is already rolling quickly, primarily due to aileron and to a degree
rudder. Until the wing stalls, it’s not a snap. The main thing
that you can hope for in a real snap roll that relates to precision is that
you get the correct number of degrees of roll caused by autorotation in a
stalled condition. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ed</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Nat Penton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, October 22, 2007 12:34
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The problem we have is not
understanding snap dynamics.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Rudder, elevator and aileron
are EQUALLY important to the snap.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Visionalizing the S & L up/rt
snap we see that aileron makes a critical contribution to reaching the lead
wing stall AOA ( due to rud ).</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To be a thing of beauty ( ahem,
10 ) the break will need to be initiated simaltaneously on
all axis.
Nat</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=ejhaury@comcast.net href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl Haury</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Sunday,
October 21, 2007 2:54 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I also agree with the comments
of Jon and John. Chris's observations are also valid and I'd like to expand
on his thoughts a bit. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Remember, we use contestant
judging - so it's a pretty good bet that if the judge isn't capable of
judging a snap correctly, it's also unlikely that person can perform
one correctly as a pilot. I'll bet that often the judge "requiring" a huge
"break" is the same person flying them with a snap switch, or dual rates,
set to maximum travels for all axis. They just chop power and pull the
switch or stuff the sticks into the corner. Generally this results in a
three axis track departure of some 15 to 30 degrees (as a barrel roll), now
interpreted as a "break", before flow separation occurs on the lagging wing
and a snap actually occurs. These excessive control inputs also bury
the snap and make it totally ugly. However - these folks are doing what they
think is required for a snap, so it must be right. (A lot of these never
snap and are total barrel rolls.)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So - the education process is
better focused on the pilot than the judge, and both will benefit (as will
we all). As John points out - each full scale will have different snap
characteristics. Same with pattern airplanes, and each situation may vary
(45 deg lines, vertical up -down, level, avalanche, etc.). Snaps take a good
set-up and skill to fly well, as well as being a fun part of pattern. Flyers
who take the time to determine just what set-up up and technique their
airplane needs to snap well shouldn't be penalized by those
(pilot judges) who don't. However, this whole issue might slip away if
those who've figured out how to do decent snaps would take the time to share
with those that haven't. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Earl</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:01 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Jon
and John are correct in their comments. <BR>To add something - I think the
problem is that many of us "cater" to the <BR>judges who do not judge
these maneuvers correctly. There is no <BR>requirement to over exaggerate
the break in order to do the maneuver, <BR>however many do just that as a
defensive tactic against the judge who <BR>refuses to judge correctly. The
problem is the JUDGE - not the pilot. <BR>I don't advocate changing the
schedules or K factors as a work around <BR>for poorly informed judges. We
are much too politically correct and <BR>accept the zeros from them if we
don't do it "their" way. If you <BR>compete regularly, you know who they
are and cater your maneuver to <BR>accommodate their lack of ability in
the chair. Sorry for the rant, but <BR>we are talking about fixing things
the wrong way for the wrong reasons. <BR><BR>Chris <BR><BR><BR>John Ford
wrote: <BR>> Jon, <BR>> Hear, hear. <BR>> Couldn't have said it
better! <BR>> I also share the opinion that in the case of the snap (or
the spin <BR>> entry for that matter), our judging standards don't
judge actual <BR>> flight characteristics of the particular plane, and
we are asking <BR>> pilots to exagerate the break because that is what
we agreed we wanted <BR>> to see all the time, not because every plane
should show it naturally. <BR>> Maybe we are sitting on this bed of
nails because for many people, the <BR>> mystery and controversy of the
break is more attractive than <BR>> aerodynamic reality? <BR>> I've
done lots of snaps in full-sized planes and there are as many <BR>>
break styles as there are airplane designs. Some older/larger planes
<BR>> require that you slow up and reef back almost to the buffet
before <BR>> mashing the rudder, others are so touchy that a modest tap
on the <BR>> rudder with only a hint of pitchup will send the beast
thru 150 <BR>> degrees of autorotation before you can think about it.
In both cases, <BR>> believe me, it was a true snap roll, but in the
first case, you may <BR>> have seen some break, but in the latter, it
would have looked like <BR>> everything happened at the same time
around all 3 axes. I'm sitting in <BR>> the thing, and I can't tell!
<BR>> Essentially the same comments for spin entry, in agreement with
Jon's <BR>> comments. <BR>> I'll judge by the rules of the CD, but I
do it with a bit of a <BR>> shoulder shrug, I suppose. <BR>> John
<BR>> <BR>> */JonLowe@aol.com/* wrote: <BR>> <BR>> The age old
problem of what a "break" is in a snap was solved at <BR>> the Don Lowe
Masters a couple of years ago. They defined it as a <BR>> "simultaneous
departure in all three axis". There you saw graceful <BR>> snap
entries, clearly defineable as a snap. At the IMAC Tuscon <BR>>
shootout, they had had the pitch departure requirement, and most <BR>>
were pitching what looked like 45 degrees (was probably 25 <BR>>
degrees), before they entered the snap. Break, pause, enter snap. <BR>>
Ugly as hell. At a pattern judging seminar I went to this year, we
<BR>> sat around for half an our trying to decide what a "pitch break"
<BR>> was. We finally decided that if you saw anything at all, it was
<BR>> ok. But beware of IMAC judges crossing over, unless they have
been <BR>> retrained. I got some 5's this year this year, because they
didn't <BR>> see a large break. <BR>> As regards spin entries, there
are too many spin entry nazis IMHO. <BR>> The rule book clearly defines
downgrades for entries. In my book, <BR>> if they don't break any of
those rules, (wing coming over before <BR>> the nose passes thru
horizontal, not stalled, weathervaning, <BR>> etc.), I don't downgrade
for the entry. Too many people want to <BR>> add their own definition
to the rules about how an entry "should" <BR>> look, and tell you they
downgraded or zeroed you. When you ask <BR>> them what specific rule
you violated, they say it "didn't look <BR>> right". Some of these same
people will coach you to "cheat" at the <BR>> entry to get a pretty
one, dumping up elevator to get the nose to <BR>> fall thru, which
really breaks the stall. Unfortunately, all <BR>> airplanes do not
enter the same way, and some entries are not <BR>> pretty, but they
don't break the rules. Maybe, as well as teaching <BR>> what isn't
correct, we ought to teach what ISN'T downgradeable in <BR>> some of
these manuevers. <BR>> Jon <BR>> In a message dated 10/21/2007
8:50:52 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>> patterndude@tx.rr.com writes:
<BR>> <BR>> Ron, <BR>> Your idea caused me to stop and think. I'm
wondering if it <BR>> would really help, however. If a pilot "in the
hunt" screws <BR>> the landing (K=1) he's now "out of the hunt" on that
round. <BR>> Scores are often very compressed at local contests so even
if <BR>> we reduce the KF, a bad score on any manuver is usually enough
<BR>> to do mortal damage. <BR>> --Lance <BR>> <BR>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> *From:* Ron Lockhart
<BR><MAILTO:RONLOCK_X0040_COMCAST.NET>> *To:* NSRCA Mailing List
<BR>> <BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:*
Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:34 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin <BR>> <BR>> Eliminating
is one solution - a price that comes with that <BR>> solution is lack
of practice doing and judging snaps- <BR>> which is desirable for some
in AMA classes, and for sure <BR>> for those looking ahead to F3A.
<BR>> An in between thought - reduce the K factor considerable <BR>>
for snap and spin maneuvers. <BR>> That leaves them in the schedules,
provides flying and <BR>> judging practice on them, but reduces the
<BR>> impact of the imperfect judging of them on round scores. <BR>>
Ron Lockhart <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>
*From:* BUDDYonRC@aol.com <BR><MAILTO:BUDDYONRC_X0040_AOL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:* Saturday,
October 20, 2007 11:44 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging <BR>> <BR>> My cents worth on the subject. <BR>> Snaps
and Spin entry seem to cause much of the problem. <BR>> Why do we
continue to repeat trying to solve a problem <BR>> that most agree is
controversial at best and <BR>> impossible to judge consistently on an
equal basis? <BR>> Seems that the best solution is to eliminate these
<BR>> from the schedules and pick maneuvers that more suit <BR>>
Precision Aerobatics and their ability to be judged <BR>> correctly by
everyone not just those who have advanced <BR>> to the top of the super
judge platform. <BR>> <BR>> Buddy <BR>> <BR>> Jon Lowe
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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