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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Nat</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Same with a spin - however, in either case there's no
downgrade for attitude (pitch) change - only track.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat
Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 22, 2007 9:34
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That part of pitch change that occurs prior to
reaching the stall AOA is not a snap, therefore that part should be downgraded
using 1 point per degree criteria. " Untill the wing stalls it is not a
snap"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 22, 2007 12:59
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The only problem
with simultaneous initiation in all 3 axis is that it is a guarantee that
the beginning of the roll was not in a stalled condition, i.e. not an
autorotation. Therefore, that part of the roll isn’t a snap and should
be downgraded using 1 point per degree criteria. Then the trick
becomes determining just when the autorotation actually did commence while
the airplane is already rolling quickly, primarily due to aileron and to a
degree rudder. Until the wing stalls, it’s not a snap. The main
thing that you can hope for in a real snap roll that relates to precision is
that you get the correct number of degrees of roll caused by autorotation in
a stalled condition. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ed</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Nat Penton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, October 22, 2007 12:34
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The problem we have is not
understanding snap dynamics.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Rudder, elevator and aileron
are EQUALLY important to the snap.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Visionalizing the S & L
up/rt snap we see that aileron makes a critical contribution to reaching the
lead wing stall AOA ( due to rud ).</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To be a thing of beauty ( ahem,
10 ) the break will need to be initiated simaltaneously
on all axis.
Nat</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=ejhaury@comcast.net href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl Haury</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:54 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I also agree with
the comments of Jon and John. Chris's observations are also valid and I'd
like to expand on his thoughts a bit. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Remember, we use
contestant judging - so it's a pretty good bet that if the judge isn't
capable of judging a snap correctly, it's also unlikely that person
can perform one correctly as a pilot. I'll bet that often the judge
"requiring" a huge "break" is the same person flying them with a snap
switch, or dual rates, set to maximum travels for all axis. They just chop
power and pull the switch or stuff the sticks into the corner. Generally
this results in a three axis track departure of some 15 to 30 degrees (as
a barrel roll), now interpreted as a "break", before flow separation
occurs on the lagging wing and a snap actually occurs. These excessive
control inputs also bury the snap and make it totally ugly. However -
these folks are doing what they think is required for a snap, so it must
be right. (A lot of these never snap and are total barrel
rolls.)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So - the
education process is better focused on the pilot than the judge, and both
will benefit (as will we all). As John points out - each full scale will
have different snap characteristics. Same with pattern airplanes, and each
situation may vary (45 deg lines, vertical up -down, level, avalanche,
etc.). Snaps take a good set-up and skill to fly well, as well as being a
fun part of pattern. Flyers who take the time to determine just what
set-up up and technique their airplane needs to snap well shouldn't be
penalized by those (pilot judges) who don't. However, this whole
issue might slip away if those who've figured out how to do decent snaps
would take the time to share with those that haven't.
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Earl</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com
href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris moon</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:01 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Jon and John are correct in
their comments. <BR>To add something - I think the problem is that many
of us "cater" to the <BR>judges who do not judge these maneuvers
correctly. There is no <BR>requirement to over exaggerate the break in
order to do the maneuver, <BR>however many do just that as a defensive
tactic against the judge who <BR>refuses to judge correctly. The problem
is the JUDGE - not the pilot. <BR>I don't advocate changing the
schedules or K factors as a work around <BR>for poorly informed judges.
We are much too politically correct and <BR>accept the zeros from them
if we don't do it "their" way. If you <BR>compete regularly, you know
who they are and cater your maneuver to <BR>accommodate their lack of
ability in the chair. Sorry for the rant, but <BR>we are talking about
fixing things the wrong way for the wrong reasons. <BR><BR>Chris
<BR><BR><BR>John Ford wrote: <BR>> Jon, <BR>> Hear, hear. <BR>>
Couldn't have said it better! <BR>> I also share the opinion that in
the case of the snap (or the spin <BR>> entry for that matter), our
judging standards don't judge actual <BR>> flight characteristics of
the particular plane, and we are asking <BR>> pilots to exagerate the
break because that is what we agreed we wanted <BR>> to see all the
time, not because every plane should show it naturally. <BR>> Maybe
we are sitting on this bed of nails because for many people, the
<BR>> mystery and controversy of the break is more attractive than
<BR>> aerodynamic reality? <BR>> I've done lots of snaps in
full-sized planes and there are as many <BR>> break styles as there
are airplane designs. Some older/larger planes <BR>> require that you
slow up and reef back almost to the buffet before <BR>> mashing the
rudder, others are so touchy that a modest tap on the <BR>> rudder
with only a hint of pitchup will send the beast thru 150 <BR>>
degrees of autorotation before you can think about it. In both cases,
<BR>> believe me, it was a true snap roll, but in the first case, you
may <BR>> have seen some break, but in the latter, it would have
looked like <BR>> everything happened at the same time around all 3
axes. I'm sitting in <BR>> the thing, and I can't tell! <BR>>
Essentially the same comments for spin entry, in agreement with Jon's
<BR>> comments. <BR>> I'll judge by the rules of the CD, but I do
it with a bit of a <BR>> shoulder shrug, I suppose. <BR>> John
<BR>> <BR>> */JonLowe@aol.com/* wrote: <BR>> <BR>> The age
old problem of what a "break" is in a snap was solved at <BR>> the
Don Lowe Masters a couple of years ago. They defined it as a <BR>>
"simultaneous departure in all three axis". There you saw graceful
<BR>> snap entries, clearly defineable as a snap. At the IMAC Tuscon
<BR>> shootout, they had had the pitch departure requirement, and
most <BR>> were pitching what looked like 45 degrees (was probably 25
<BR>> degrees), before they entered the snap. Break, pause, enter
snap. <BR>> Ugly as hell. At a pattern judging seminar I went to this
year, we <BR>> sat around for half an our trying to decide what a
"pitch break" <BR>> was. We finally decided that if you saw anything
at all, it was <BR>> ok. But beware of IMAC judges crossing over,
unless they have been <BR>> retrained. I got some 5's this year this
year, because they didn't <BR>> see a large break. <BR>> As
regards spin entries, there are too many spin entry nazis IMHO. <BR>>
The rule book clearly defines downgrades for entries. In my book,
<BR>> if they don't break any of those rules, (wing coming over
before <BR>> the nose passes thru horizontal, not stalled,
weathervaning, <BR>> etc.), I don't downgrade for the entry. Too many
people want to <BR>> add their own definition to the rules about how
an entry "should" <BR>> look, and tell you they downgraded or zeroed
you. When you ask <BR>> them what specific rule you violated, they
say it "didn't look <BR>> right". Some of these same people will
coach you to "cheat" at the <BR>> entry to get a pretty one, dumping
up elevator to get the nose to <BR>> fall thru, which really breaks
the stall. Unfortunately, all <BR>> airplanes do not enter the same
way, and some entries are not <BR>> pretty, but they don't break the
rules. Maybe, as well as teaching <BR>> what isn't correct, we ought
to teach what ISN'T downgradeable in <BR>> some of these manuevers.
<BR>> Jon <BR>> In a message dated 10/21/2007 8:50:52 AM Central
Daylight Time, <BR>> patterndude@tx.rr.com writes: <BR>> <BR>>
Ron, <BR>> Your idea caused me to stop and think. I'm wondering if it
<BR>> would really help, however. If a pilot "in the hunt" screws
<BR>> the landing (K=1) he's now "out of the hunt" on that round.
<BR>> Scores are often very compressed at local contests so even if
<BR>> we reduce the KF, a bad score on any manuver is usually enough
<BR>> to do mortal damage. <BR>> --Lance <BR>> <BR>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> *From:* Ron Lockhart
<BR><MAILTO:RONLOCK_X0040_COMCAST.NET>> *To:* NSRCA Mailing List
<BR>> <BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:*
Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:34 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin <BR>> <BR>> Eliminating
is one solution - a price that comes with that <BR>> solution is lack
of practice doing and judging snaps- <BR>> which is desirable for
some in AMA classes, and for sure <BR>> for those looking ahead to
F3A. <BR>> An in between thought - reduce the K factor considerable
<BR>> for snap and spin maneuvers. <BR>> That leaves them in the
schedules, provides flying and <BR>> judging practice on them, but
reduces the <BR>> impact of the imperfect judging of them on round
scores. <BR>> Ron Lockhart <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>> *From:* BUDDYonRC@aol.com
<BR><MAILTO:BUDDYONRC_X0040_AOL.COM>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
<BR><MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION_X0040_LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> *Sent:*
Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:44 AM <BR>> *Subject:* Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging <BR>> <BR>> My cents worth on the
subject. <BR>> Snaps and Spin entry seem to cause much of the
problem. <BR>> Why do we continue to repeat trying to solve a problem
<BR>> that most agree is controversial at best and <BR>>
impossible to judge consistently on an equal basis? <BR>> Seems that
the best solution is to eliminate these <BR>> from the schedules and
pick maneuvers that more suit <BR>> Precision Aerobatics and their
ability to be judged <BR>> correctly by everyone not just those who
have advanced <BR>> to the top of the super judge platform. <BR>>
<BR>> Buddy <BR>> <BR>> Jon Lowe <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
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