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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Lance:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The return to the published KFs was
because we were just doing it wrong, basically going against the charter to
follow IAC from a purist POV. It also screwed up the software automation we
had with KFs being nicely listed with each figure and tallied for the sequence
by the Aresti program that we used for creating sequences. Every time a
sequence was created, you had to go look up those figures altered by the rule
change and modify it. It was messy. I think those were the main
reasons.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ed</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Lance Van Nostrand<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 21, 2007
8:41 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap
& spin</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Interesting, Ed,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If this was discussed at length
(instead of a few emails here) do you remember why they returned the KFs to the
FAI cataloge numbers? Was their rationale more complete than ours?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>--Lance</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com" title="ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Sunday,
October 21, 2007 9:14 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>K-factor multipliers are
all about degree of difficulty and we can probably agree that it can be
difficult to do good snaps every time. They can seem like a good thing
from that perspective. However, for some perspective I thought back to a
similar discussion and thought process in IMAC a few years back, where tail
slides were considered problematic (correctly so I think). That led us
into a discussion of elimination of the maneuver in sequences, restricting how
it was used (upwind only vs. downwind) and so forth. They were genuinely
hard to fly consistently and also somewhat hard to judge properly when
presented certain ways, such as when heading downwind and far away. That
led to the idea of reducing the K-factor when the tail slide was part of a
figure, which also led to us dreaming up other K-factor adjustments (rollers
went higher if I remember correctly). </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Anyway the point is that
we ended up tampering with things that caused us to stray from compliance with
the FAI catalogue, which was a problem in the case of IMAC. Ultimately the
k-factors got corrected back and tail slides stopped appearing in
sequences. Problem solved! Should we eliminate snaps in
Pattern? I don’t much care for them, but I can live with them. I
would like to at least keep their use to an absolute minimum due to the
inherent mismatch with precision flying and performing and judging a true snap
roll correctly. It’s based entirely too much on the opinions of the
observer. Because we’ve just got little models whistling about and
momentarily turning into a blur, I’m afraid that it will always be thus.
It’s very different than watching a full scale airplane do a snap,
where there is little doubt of whether one was done for real or not. I
don’t know if it would be wrong to minimize the K-factor with snaps or
not, but it leaves me wondering if we’re solving the right problem?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ed</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Lance Van Nostrand<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 21, 2007
8:51 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Ron,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Your
idea caused me to stop and think. I'm wondering if it would really help,
however. If a pilot "in the hunt" screws the landing (K=1) he's
now "out of the hunt" on that round. Scores are often very
compressed at local contests so even if we reduce the KF, a bad score on any
manuver is usually enough to do mortal damage.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>--Lance</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net" title="ronlock@comcast.net">Ron Lockhart</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Saturday, October 20,
2007 11:34 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Eliminating
is one solution - a price that comes with that solution is lack of practice
doing and judging snaps-</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>which is
desirable for some in AMA classes, and for sure for those looking ahead to F3A.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>An in
between thought - reduce the K factor considerable for snap and spin maneuvers.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>That
leaves them in the schedules, provides flying and judging practice on them, but
reduces the</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>impact
of the imperfect judging of them on round scores.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Ron
Lockhart</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:BUDDYonRC@aol.com" title="BUDDYonRC@aol.com">BUDDYonRC@aol.com</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Saturday, October 20,
2007 11:44 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial id="role_document"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>My cents worth on the subject.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Snaps
and Spin entry seem to cause much of the problem.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Why do
we continue to repeat trying to solve a problem that most agree is
controversial at best and impossible to judge consistently on an equal
basis?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Seems
that the best solution is to eliminate these from the schedules and pick
maneuvers that more suit Precision Aerobatics and their ability to be
judged correctly by everyone not just those who have advanced to the top
of the super judge platform.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
Buddy</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
5.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>See
what's new at <a href="http://www.aol.com?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170"
target="_blank" title="http://www.aol.com?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170">AOL.com</a>
and <a href="http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169"
target="_blank"
title="http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169">Make AOL Your
Homepage</a>.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font></p>
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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
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