<DIV>Jon,</DIV> <DIV>Hear, hear.</DIV> <DIV>Couldn't have said it better!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I also share the opinion that in the case of the snap (or the spin entry for that matter), our judging standards don't judge actual flight characteristics of the particular plane, and we are asking pilots to exagerate the break because that is what we agreed we wanted to see all the time, not because every plane should show it naturally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe we are sitting on this bed of nails because for many people, the mystery and controversy of the break is more attractive than aerodynamic reality?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've done lots of snaps in full-sized planes and there are as many break styles as there are airplane designs. Some older/larger planes require that you slow up and reef back almost to the buffet before mashing the rudder, others are so touchy that a modest tap on the rudder with only a hint of pitchup will
send the beast thru 150 degrees of autorotation before you can think about it. In both cases, believe me, it was a true snap roll, but in the first case, you may have seen some break, but in the latter, it would have looked like everything happened at the same time around all 3 axes. I'm sitting in the thing, and I can't tell! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Essentially the same comments for spin entry, in agreement with Jon's comments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll judge by the rules of the CD, but I do it with a bit of a shoulder shrug, I suppose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>John<BR><BR><B><I>JonLowe@aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3199" name=GENERATOR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>The age old problem of what a "break" is in a snap was solved at the Don Lowe Masters a couple of years ago. They defined it as a
"simultaneous departure in all three axis". There you saw graceful snap entries, clearly defineable as a snap. At the IMAC Tuscon shootout, they had had the pitch departure requirement, and most were pitching what looked like 45 degrees (was probably 25 degrees), before they entered the snap. Break, pause, enter snap. Ugly as hell. At a pattern judging seminar I went to this year, we sat around for half an our trying to decide what a "pitch break" was. We finally decided that if you saw anything at all, it was ok. But beware of IMAC judges crossing over, unless they have been retrained. I got some 5's this year this year, because they didn't see a large break.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As regards spin entries, there are too many spin entry nazis IMHO. The rule book clearly defines downgrades for entries. In my book, if they don't break any of those rules, (wing coming over before the nose passes thru
horizontal, not stalled, weathervaning, etc.), I don't downgrade for the entry. Too many people want to add their own definition to the rules about how an entry "should" look, and tell you they downgraded or zeroed you. When you ask them what specific rule you violated, they say it "didn't look right". Some of these same people will coach you to "cheat" at the entry to get a pretty one, dumping up elevator to get the nose to fall thru, which really breaks the stall. Unfortunately, all airplanes do not enter the same way, and some entries are not pretty, but they don't break the rules. Maybe, as well as teaching what isn't correct, we ought to teach what ISN'T downgradeable in some of these manuevers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jon</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a message dated 10/21/2007 8:50:52 AM Central Daylight Time, patterndude@tx.rr.com writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px
solid"> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Your idea caused me to stop and think. I'm wondering if it would really help, however. If a pilot "in the hunt" screws the landing (K=1) he's now "out of the hunt" on that round. Scores are often very compressed at local contests so even if we reduce the KF, a bad score on any manuver is usually enough to do mortal damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:ronlock@comcast.net href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">Ron Lockhart</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:34 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Eliminating is one solution - a price that comes with that solution is lack of practice doing and judging snaps-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>which is desirable for some in AMA classes, and for sure for those looking ahead to F3A.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>An in between thought - reduce the K factor considerable for snap and spin maneuvers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That leaves them in the schedules, provides flying and judging practice on them, but reduces the</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>impact of the imperfect
judging of them on round scores.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron Lockhart</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:BUDDYonRC@aol.com href="mailto:BUDDYonRC@aol.com">BUDDYonRC@aol.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:44 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT id=role_document color=#000000>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My cents worth on the subject.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Snaps and Spin entry seem to cause much of the problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why do we continue to repeat trying to solve a problem that most agree is controversial at best and impossible to judge consistently on an equal basis?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Seems that the best solution is to eliminate these from the schedules and pick maneuvers that more suit Precision Aerobatics and their ability to be judged correctly by everyone not just those who have advanced to the top of the super judge platform.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Buddy</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10">Jon Lowe<BR></FONT></DIV><BR><BR><BR> <DIV><FONT style="FONT: 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF; COLOR: black"> <HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px"> See
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