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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>True, additional emphasis, practice, judging
seminars and field practice on snap/spins will help, and I'm glad to see them
under way. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>Though effort in this direction
is not new, we have<FONT face=Arial size=2> been working on snap/spin
issues for over a decade.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As Vince points out, there is a trade off between
showing a clear break, and increased difficulty of staying on track and hitting
the exit. It's no suprise that the resulting judging task is quite
difficult.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Shall we retain the high K factor and high impact
on round scores for snap/spin maneuvers while we continue</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>our judge training efforts another year, two,
three....... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Later, Ron Lockhart</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:57
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I believe that judging seminars before the contest will help to minimize
all these issues. Today, I went to fly and I was trying to show the
break in the snaps. As we all know, the maneuver is a lot more difficult
and the chances to go out of track are lot higher when we try to do it.
That is the single reason why we don't like to do it. There is a clear
trade off. Probably, the CD before the contest have to
announce clearly that judges will be looking for breaks in the snaps
and downgrade accordingly. I firmly believe that we will start to
notice the change in the right direction.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=signature id=signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "J N Hiller"
<jnhiller@earthlink.net> <BR>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle19><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">That
would reduce the effect of inconsistent judging but I don’t think we should
go there.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle19><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">I am
flying Advanced and these snap maneuvers are somewhat new to me after
several years out of pattern. I am experiencing a fair amount of
inconsistency in flying the three maneuvers in the schedule (Avalanche, 45
down snap and 3 turn spin ‘all K-3’) having snap or spin elements. In
looking at my score sheets from three 6 round contests I find only two
occurrences where there were a big scoring difference 0 –7 & 8.5-3.
Having judged snaps and spins a few times it can be a very close call as to
whether the criteria is met or not and as a pilot I get the message that my
presentation is questionable when I get large differences.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle19><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">I am
consistently posting lower 6 round averages for these than the K-4 maneuvers
(6 side outside loop, triangle rolling loop, 4-point). I believe airplane
design and set-up may be a bigger factor than skill, which is primarily
symmetry and positioning. Retaining the K-3 gives us more incentive to
acquire all necessary skills.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle19><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Jim
Hiller<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle19><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle19><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ron Lockhart<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:35
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Eliminating is one
solution - a price that comes with that solution is lack of practice doing
and judging snaps-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">which
is desirable for some in AMA classes, and for sure for those looking ahead
to F3A.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">An in
between thought - reduce the K factor considerable for snap and spin
maneuvers.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That
leaves them in the schedules, provides flying and judging practice on them,
but reduces the<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">impact of the
imperfect judging of them on round scores.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ron
Lockhart<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV style="font-color: black">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=BUDDYonRC@aol.com
href="mailto:BUDDYonRC@aol.com">BUDDYonRC@aol.com</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Saturday, October
20, 2007 11:44 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My cents worth on
the subject.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snaps and Spin
entry seem to cause much of the problem.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Why do we continue
to repeat trying to solve a problem that most agree is controversial at best
and impossible to judge consistently on an equal
basis?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Seems that the
best solution is to eliminate these from the schedules and pick maneuvers
that more suit Precision Aerobatics and their ability to be
judged correctly by everyone not just those who have advanced to the
top of the super judge platform.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 40.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><FONT
face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR>Buddy<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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style="mso-special-character: line-break"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">See what's new at
<A title=http://www.aol.com?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170
href="http://www.aol.com/?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170"
target=_blank>AOL.com</A> and <A
title=http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169
href="http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169"
target=_blank>Make AOL Your Homepage</A>.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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