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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The rules of the CD have to be the rules
of the AMA unless they put in an appropriate waiver ahead of time. A CD does
not have the authority to break out a sudden announcement about his set of
rules governing snaps. It is unfair to contestants to abide by someone else’s
version of the rules, unless all contestants had reasonable notice in advance through
a waiver.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ed</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Ford<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 21, 2007
1:02 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging-snap & spin</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jon,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hear, hear.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Couldn't have said it better!</span></font></p>
</div>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I also share the opinion that in the case of the
snap (or the spin entry for that matter), our judging standards don't judge
actual flight characteristics of the particular plane, and we are asking pilots
to exagerate the break because that is what we agreed we wanted to see all the
time, not because every plane should show it naturally.</span></font></p>
</div>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Maybe we are sitting on this bed of nails
because for many people, the mystery and controversy of the break is more
attractive than aerodynamic reality?</span></font></p>
</div>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I've done lots of snaps in full-sized planes and there
are as many break styles as there are airplane designs. Some older/larger
planes require that you slow up and reef back almost to the buffet before
mashing the rudder, others are so touchy that a modest tap on the rudder with
only a hint of pitchup will send the beast thru 150 degrees of autorotation
before you can think about it. In both cases, believe me, it was a true snap
roll, but in the first case, you may have seen some break, but in the
latter, it would have looked like everything happened at the same time around
all 3 axes. I'm sitting in the thing, and I can't tell! </span></font></p>
</div>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Essentially the same comments for spin entry, in
agreement with Jon's comments.</span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I'll judge by the rules of the CD, but I do it with a
bit of a shoulder shrug, I suppose.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>JonLowe@aol.com</span></i></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
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margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The age old problem of what a "break" is in
a snap was solved at the Don Lowe Masters a couple of years ago. They
defined it as a "simultaneous departure in all three axis". There
you saw graceful snap entries, clearly defineable as a snap. At the IMAC
Tuscon shootout, they had had the pitch departure requirement, and most were
pitching what looked like 45 degrees (was probably 25 degrees), before they
entered the snap. Break, pause, enter snap. Ugly as hell. At
a pattern judging seminar I went to this year, we sat around for half an our
trying to decide what a "pitch break" was. We finally decided
that if you saw anything at all, it was ok. But beware of IMAC judges
crossing over, unless they have been retrained. I got some 5's this year
this year, because they didn't see a large break.</span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>As regards spin entries, there are too many spin entry
nazis IMHO. The rule book clearly defines downgrades for entries.
In my book, if they don't break any of those rules, (wing coming over before
the nose passes thru horizontal, not stalled, weathervaning, etc.), I don't
downgrade for the entry. Too many people want to add their own definition
to the rules about how an entry "should" look, and tell you they
downgraded or zeroed you. When you ask them what specific rule you
violated, they say it "didn't look right". Some of these same
people will coach you to "cheat" at the entry to get a pretty one,
dumping up elevator to get the nose to fall thru, which really breaks the
stall. Unfortunately, all airplanes do not enter the same way, and some
entries are not pretty, but they don't break the rules. Maybe, as well as
teaching what isn't correct, we ought to teach what ISN'T downgradeable in some
of these manuevers.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jon</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>In a message dated 10/21/2007 8:50:52 AM Central
Daylight Time, patterndude@tx.rr.com writes:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ron,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Your idea caused me to stop and
think. I'm wondering if it would really help, however. If a pilot
"in the hunt" screws the landing (K=1) he's now "out of the
hunt" on that round. Scores are often very compressed at local
contests so even if we reduce the KF, a bad score on any manuver is usually
enough to do mortal damage.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>--Lance</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net" title="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">Ron
Lockhart</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Saturday,
October 20, 2007 11:34 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Eliminating is one solution - a
price that comes with that solution is lack of practice doing and judging
snaps-</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>which is desirable for some in AMA
classes, and for sure for those looking ahead to F3A.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>An in between thought - reduce the K
factor considerable for snap and spin maneuvers.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>That leaves them in the schedules,
provides flying and judging practice on them, but reduces the</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>impact of the imperfect judging of
them on round scores.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ron Lockhart</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:BUDDYonRC@aol.com" title="mailto:BUDDYonRC@aol.com">BUDDYonRC@aol.com</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Saturday,
October 20, 2007 11:44 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial id="role_document"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>My cents worth on the subject.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Snaps
and Spin entry seem to cause much of the problem.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Why do
we continue to repeat trying to solve a problem that most agree is
controversial at best and impossible to judge consistently on an equal
basis?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Seems
that the best solution is to eliminate these from the schedules and pick
maneuvers that more suit Precision Aerobatics and their ability to be
judged correctly by everyone not just those who have advanced to the top
of the super judge platform.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Buddy</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"
PTSIZE=10><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jon Lowe</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<div>
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margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>See what's new at <a
href="http://www.aol.com/?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170" target="_blank"
title="http://www.aol.com?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170">AOL.com</a> and <a
href="http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169" target="_blank"
title="http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169">Make AOL Your
Homepage</a>.</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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