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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In my opinion, that only says that you can’t
use them to indicate a violation – nothing about using a visual reference
to make a judgment. In other words, you can’t blow a whistle after the
plane flies out of the box.</span></font></p>
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<p><b><i><font size=4 color=navy face="Brush Script MT"><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:"Brush Script MT";color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:
italic'>Jay </span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=4 color=navy
face="Brush Script MT"><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Brush Script MT";
color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Marshall</span></font></i></b><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> [mailto:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Earl Haury<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 17, 2007
4:02 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>NSRCA Mailing
List</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hi Georgie</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In the F3A rules currently there is
the sentence "Audible and visual signals to indicate violations of the
maneuvering zone are not to be employed". Sporting Code. Section C, Part
Five, specifically 5.1.8. I believe that all such wording is now gone from AMA
rules.</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Earl</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:geobet@gis.net" title="geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</a> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday,
October 17, 2007 1:06 PM</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <<<<<<<Various
wording in both AMA & F3A rules have prohibited judging "aids".
>>>>>></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It would be very helpful to me if
someone could point me to this reference in the rulebook as I have never been
able to find it.</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Georgie</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
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<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" title="ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl Haury</a> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday,
October 17, 2007 12:25 PM</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Some thoughts that might help
unburden judges and improve accuracy. These are outside the box a bit -
process box, not flight box. As some have mentioned, replacing human judges
with some form of computer scoring system is the ultimate answer. I hope I live
long enough to see that work, not that it's impossible now - just no one with
the interest / skills / finances has approached it. Much time has been spent
discussing ways to transfer the score from the judges mind to paper - but,
guess what, a pencil and paper works just fine! (It's not even too hard to
process scores with a calculator!)</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>F3A rules preclude the use of means
to define box violations other than the judge's observation. Various wording in
both AMA & F3A rules have prohibited judging "aids". This seems
contradictory to the purpose! A pilot is supposed to demonstrate skill in
flying an aircraft within the constraints of the box with perfection being the
goal - while being judged by a bunch of ill-positioned folks who vary in being
able to determine distance +- 50 meters? In the days of interrogated circuits,
dual conversation RX, and giggle Hertz freq we still choose to rely on
guesstimates for distance! Nonsense. Very little effort would be required to provide
accurate excessive distance and box excursion information. Take this burden
from the judge and apply any distance / box downgrades post flight. Sure - I
don't know just what these machines are at the moment (could be just properly
placed people in major meets) - but asking the question may get somebody
thinking.</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If the pilot is expected to display
perfection in flight - we should move into the 21st century in devising ways of
accurately judging whether or not that perfection is present. Of course it
might cost some of us judges a job - darn, I would hate to lose the income!</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Earl</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" title="ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl Haury</a> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Discussion List, NSRCA</a> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday,
October 17, 2007 10:29 AM</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Allow me to start a new thread for
the purpose of analyzing the issues Jim and others highlighted in the D3
thread. Most of us have been frustrated over the years by inaccurate
scoring, both high and low. Forget the notion that it doesn't matter if an
inaccurate judge is consistent - that person is just consistently wrong and it
does matter, the rules require both accurate and consistent scoring. I also
don't believe that judging ability depends entirely on class flown,
masters and FAI folks aren't inherently smarter than others. Experience does
improve accuracy and it's important to know what maneuvers / schedule that will
be judged (called preparation). However, it's not important what class is
flying the maneuver - a half loop or immelman or stall turn is the same in
intermediate as F3A. The NSRCA Judge Cert program has improved the quality of
judging immensely! So - now that I've gotten these generalities out of my
system, let's take a look at why F3A scores may vary a lot by judge / region.</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I've heard the opinion expressed
that the whole point scoring in F3A dictates that no downgrade is applied until
an error of 15 deg or more is observed. Conversely, others feel that any error
in F3A requires, at least, a one point downgrade. Hmmmm - that'll make a
difference! F3A adopted whole point scoring in an effort to force judges
to use the entire 10 - 0 range of scores, rather than the upper 3 or so as was
typical. This is probably where the 1pt for any error notion comes
from. But it was difficult to quantify how much to downgrade many
errors, and a wide variation occurred between judges of equal skill, some saw a
5 deg error worthy of a point deduction - others would see a 30 deg error as
worthy of only a point. Probably the most useful metric available to judges is
the 1/15 rule! </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>However, the 1/15 rule fails to
define just what should be done for errors of less than 15 deg. Honest
differences of opinion exist and these become more important the better a
maneuver is flown. I suspect that some evaluation of the wording of the rules
might help. F3A requires "marking" (scoring) in whole points, but uses
the word "downgrade" regarding the judges assessment of the
"mark". While examples of egregious errors are noted in whole points,
there is no exclusion forbidding the judge to use smaller downgrade increments
to arrive at the whole point score. So why is the downgrade for errors smaller
than 15 deg undefined? Well - pattern folks are certainly smart (or we wouldn't
be doing this - right?) and have no problem recognizing the downgrade
applicable to 30, 45, etc. errors basis the 1/15 metric, there shouldn't be any
difficulty in the other direction either as 5 deg = 1/3 pt, 7.5 = 1/2
pt, etc. </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A problem arises when a judge is
between whole points with the proper downgrades. (Things would be a lot easier
if F3A adopted 1/2 pt scoring - I've made the arguments and some are listening
- but don't expect a change any time soon.) The scenario might be a simple
turnaround maneuver with a slight 5 deg error of some sort which deserves a 1/3
pt downgrade. Some will score this a 10, others a 9. The F3A rules dwell on
major defects and leave these situations nearly unaddressed. Consider that a 9
is unfair - might as well make a 15 deg error. Some will say a 10 is unfair as
the maneuver is imperfect and we are striving for perfection. OK - the F3A
rules state "</span></font><span lang=EN-GB>A high score should be given
only if no major defects are found and the maneuver is well positioned." </span><font
face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Arial'>You decide - I would
probably go with a 10, as there's no "major" defect, and feel
comfortable rounding to the nearest whole number. Unfortunately, unintentional
bias (basis pilot reputation, quality of current flight, etc.) can slip in here
and result in like maneuvers being rounded up and down for different pilots -
here's a place where judge consistency must be applied. </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Centering is another area
where downgrades often vary in that some focus on a center "key
point" of a maneuver and downgrade heavily if that point is missed. F3A
rules state "</span></font><span lang=EN-GB>This may be in the range of 1
to 4 points subtracted" </span><font face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-family:Arial'>with regards to centering errors, without defining a
metric. Most assume 1 pt / 25%. OK - the middle of the inverted portion of a 4
pt roll is way off - the 90 deg roll ends at the pole - most would ding this a
couple of points. But, a 4 pt roll may be 1000 ft long, so a 2 pt downgrade
would be appropriate for a 500 ft error, the example is probably less than 200
feet - so a 1pt downgrade would be more appropriate. If the overall length of a
maneuver is considered, centering downgrades are often less than scored. This
concept is even more important for "narrow" center maneuvers.</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>So - there are a couple
of places where judges can disagree in scoring and these will generate large
differences in scores by flight and, possibly, by region. Our NSRCA judging
program has done and is doing a good job of ensuring we all recognize errors.
The 1/15 rule provides a good metric and works well with the AMA 1/2 point
scoring system. This same 1/15 metric leaves us hanging a bit in F3A when
used with whole point scoring. Maybe a solution is for us to use 1/2 pt.
scoring in F3A events in AMA contests. Certainly we might include direction in
our judging program to ensure folks judging F3A handle this issue consistently.</span></font></p>
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