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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm with ya, Ken ! Even on the ground,
things are contingent on whether the engine is running or not and at what
RPM.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mrandmrst@comcast.net href="mailto:mrandmrst@comcast.net">Ken
Thompson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:26
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rudder</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nope, only until the side area towards the
wind, aft of the CG, is lessened enough to not be affected by said wind,
due to the rotation of the fuse on the CG. In theory, the fuse
would "yaw" to a point where the area in front and behind the CG becomes
equal. In forward flight the pressure on the vertical fin counteracts
some of that rotation. When the bird is stationary on the ground, no
forward motion, the fuse will rotate until the nose is directly into the wind,
unless friction from landing gear prevents that rotation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>my .02</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=davel322@comcast.net href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net">Dave
Lockhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:15
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rudder</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So if I follow that
theory to its conclusion, the airplane would rotate in yaw until it was
pointed directly into the wind? This of course assumes the moment of
side area is greater aft of the CG (which it is for pattern planes,
otherwise we’d find ourselves regularly using “bottom” rudder as with many a
3D foamy).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Just a
question. I’m not pledging support to either side of the discussion
<G>.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Stuart Chale<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:11
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> '<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>'<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rudder</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It does. That
is what causes the plane to weather-vane, weather-cock or whatever you want
to name it into the wind. The nose does turn into the wind (again from
my experience). The faster you are flying the less this occurs due to
the aerodynamics of the vertical fin etc coming into play..
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Theory on my
part<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There is a point on
the plane close to the CG where the plane will yaw around when a force is
applied be it with rudder or wind blowing from the side. If the forces
were equal in front and behind this point the plane will just blow with the
wind. If the force is greater behind this point (think of the vertical
fin and rudder on a long moment arm, the fuse) then the plane should turn
into the wind. The wind blowing on the rear of the plane will produce
a greater force than the wind blowing on the plane in front of this point. I
do not think it matters if the plane is on the ground or flying. It
will still turn the same way, obviously much greater with the plane on the
ground and a friction point available.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Stuart<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jerry Voth<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 10, 2007 4:34
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rudder</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I've been folloing this thread and there is one
thing that puzzles me. The vertical fin and rudder are (and I'm guessing)
about 20% of the total side area of a pattern plane. If it were
weathervaning,why wouldn't the nose be more prone to blow in the direction
of the wind?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=drykert2@rochester.rr.com
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del K. Rykert</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:23 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rudder<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thank goodness
judges don't have a T & B ball in a panel in front of them to watch
how many are skidding through the air.. grins.. I have always felt
if all things are pure the pattern airplane in true corrected crab
maintains it same speed when pulling to vertical and the crosswind
component stays constant then no further input is needed till your speed
starts to decay when pulling vertical. What many are doing is flying
one wing low when in level fight then when they pull vertical have to
sneak in some extra correction for pulling a highly visible vertical to
the judges. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on">Del</st1:State></st1:place></SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=jim.woodward@baesystems.com
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward, Jim</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:31 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rudder<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bob – the
correct answer on using aileron during a radius, for the purpose of wind
correction, is that if you are NOT using it is a downgrade(able).
It’s impossible in every way to use only rudder through a radius
actually keep the “wings-level” to the intended flight
path.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Maneuvers are
to be wind-corrected and flown in a single vertical plane – anything
less is uncivilized </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Wingdings color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The wings
should be “level” at every part of the curve/radius, and the only way to
do that is by rolling the plane, slightly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><FONT face=Arial
color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</ST1:PERSONNAME>
W.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Richards<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:19 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rudder<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"></ST1:PERSONNAME>That
is the best description I have read so far. Agree
100%.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Not long ago, I was talking with someone about
wind correction and mentioned that a very small amount of aileron should
be used when pulling a radius to a vertical line. He said if he ever saw
me do it while he was judging, he would downgrade. I told him if I do it
right, he will never see it. :-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob R.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">J N Hiller
<jnhiller@earthlink.net></SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle22><FONT face=Arial
color=#993366 size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This has been an
interesting discussion. The airplane dose not establish a crab angle
on it’s own when in the air. The airplane has a crab angle in
horizontal flight and when it is pulled vertical the wings will not be
perpendicular to the flight path without a roll correction. The need
for the correction will be apparent and automatically applied prior to
finishing the radius. When a roll input is applied with elevator it
changes the heading in the direction of roll, (think barrel roll) in
this case into the wind as it finishes the radius. Most of the time it
will be excessive requiring a little opposite (down wind) rudder
correction unless the upwind wing was high entering the pull-up. Once
the airplane is leaning to one side in a vertical the lean will
increase and is especially noticeable as it slows. Some increase is
needed to maintain wind correction and the need for opposite rudder to
maintain a vertical track depends on how rapidly the airplane is
decelerated. Most of the time I will try to apply some down wind
rudder with the roll correction at about 45 degrees, before the need
becomes visible as it is nearly always required. In short just point
the airplane in the direction you want it to go and stir the sticks as
necessary.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><SPAN
class=EmailStyle22><FONT face=Arial color=#993366 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim</ST1:PERSONNAME>
Hiller<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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